Editing Talk:Horned Cannon Beetle

The Horned Cannon beetle is likely the same enemy as the "Armored Cannon Beetle" from pikmin 1. In Olimar's notes, he states that the Horned Cannon Beetle was "once mistaken" for an Armored cannon beetle implying his previous identification of the species was wrong. The reason I believe this is because Olimar says the same things about some other Pikmin 1 debut enemies. "Although initially identified as a juvenile Bulborb" and "Originally classified as a spotty bulborb" to name a few. It would make sense if their pages were combined. -KiwiLuvsPie

Reply:
In Pikmin 1 though, he even says it isn't a juvenille Bulborb though, it wasn't a retcon from 2. And wouldn't it be the larva who were misidentified if it was the case? Or is it retconning that the larva were discovered first?
-tarponpet
:I was less sure at first, but the fact that the "Horned" refers to its blowhole ("Males of this species are known for their hornlike blowhole") makes me think it could be a retcon. But also, why would the original be mistaken for an Armored Cannon Beetle if the blowhole is so relevant? It seems like a big thing to miss, unless Armored Cannon Beetles also have blowholes. Or, the HCB was just assumed to be the adult form of the Armored Larva without having ever seen a true Armored Cannon Beetle.<br>This could also be a situation like Pikmin 3's Iridescent Flint Beetle, where the redesign was contextualized as a subspecies. It's just a weird decision in the first place. --[[User:GopyXP|GopyXP]] ([[User talk:GopyXP|talk]]) 02:46, July 27, 2023 (EDT)

So I've completely changed my mind, the Horned Cannon Beetle IS the Lithopod from Pikmin 1, turns out its trying to fix a long standing transaltion issue. In the jappanese, the armored cannon larva was always meant to be the continental species (known as strong armed cannon beetles in the guide). The one in the first game is invasive. So yeah, the enemy from the first game is now known as a Horned Cannon Beetle and the articles should be merged. The Armored Cannon Beetle species the larva belongs to now could also be refered to as the Strong-armed cannon beetle as an alt name technically
- -[[User:Tarponpet|Tarponpet]] 5:44 PM July 27, 2023 (EST)

I can vibe with that, but in that case, why not change the name of the larva? They have the weaker carapace after all, oh well. If in the end the larva was the faker all along then I'm happy, our Cannon Beetle boy is still our same migrant.
I imagine the confusion comes from weird wording? In the player's guide it almost reads like the Strong-Armed Cannon Beetle is the technical name for the Armored, I imagine when the localization team looked at it for 2 they made the mistake of assuming they were the same creature. -Ninpan

Reply:Again logically the Larva SHOULD have been the one with name change, but thats not the case, it seems they have slightly altered or retconned things so the larva were discovered first, notice how they removed the part about their discovery from the Armored Cannon Larva piklopedia entry in 4? I also think it has something to do with the fact that the Artic Cannon beetle is just as armored as the "Armored" beetle from one, so the name is now to reflect its blowhole. Since they're the only lithopod that seems to keep its "horn-like blowhole" as olimar puts it into adulthood.

Again, even though we don't use the japaense version lore, we have enough context to know for sure that the english text is referring to the adult Armored cannons beetles from 'Pikmin' as actually Horned Cannon Beetles. They're migratory invasive lithopods exactly as they were described in 'Pikmin' and its guides, the horn part of the name is explicitly referring to the blowhole, really think we should merge the pages. Its a Bulborb situation.
-tarponpet 9:12 PM EST

Given the amount of enemies and bosses from previous games that return in Pikmin 4, the chances of the Horned Cannon Beetle being anything other than the Armored Cannon Beetle are extremely unlikely. A few other enemies have been renamed (Spotty Bulborbs to Red Bulborbs, Wollywogs to Wollyhops, etc). This just looks to be another example of that. --[[User:Kirby Bulborb|Kirby Bulborb]] ([[User talk:Kirby Bulborb|talk]]) 02:36, July 28, 2023 (EDT)

== The Great Horned Cannon Beetle Species Confusion ==

There's been a lot of debate (as seen on this page and on the Discord) about merging the [[Armored Cannon Beetle]] and the [[Horned Cannon Beetle]] articles. This is brought on by many factors, but there are reasonable doubts that prevent the wiki from taking such action.

=== Is the Horned Cannon Beetle an Armored Cannon Beetle? ===
The short answer is '''no'''. In the English [[canon]] (not cannon), the Horned Cannon Beetle is a new species introduced in {{p4}}. The Armored Cannon Beetle hasn't been seen since {{p1}}, while the [[Armored Cannon Larva]] has been in {{p2}}, {{p3}}, and ''Pikmin 4''.

Despite this, the two species are functionally identical. The HCB behaves, generally looks, and is defeated exactly like the ACB. When it was first revealed, everyone assumed it was the ACB. On the Pikmin Garden website, it's even shown in a render alongside exclusively returning enemies.

=== Lost in Translation ===
In the Japanese version, the Horned Cannon Beetle is the same species as the Armored Cannon Beetle. What isn't the same species in this version as the Armored Cannon Beetle is the Armored Cannon Larva. It seems that calling the Larva "Armored Cannon Larva" in the first place was a mistranslation made all the way back in ''Pikmin 2''. So, this whole time, there's been a Species A and a Species B in other regions, but here in the US version it's always been Species A and its Larva form.

So, it seems like the change in ''Pikmin 4'' was to fix this mistake organically without changing the name of the ACL, but instead changing the species of the "new" enemy. Along with this, part of [[Armored_Cannon_Larva#Olimar.27s_notes|Olimar's notes on the ACL]] have been removed that discuss the adult species and part of [[Horned_Cannon_Beetle#Olimar.27s_notes|Olimar's notes on the HCB]] even seem to imply the species was "originally misclassified", which may to refer to the lithopod in ''Pikmin 1''.

Apart this being wrong in regards to the original translation, this "fix" does not apply to {{p1s}} or {{p2s}}, where the Lithopod is still called the "Armored Cannon Beetle" (it's not unreasonable to assume they would change it, as they changed "Wollywogs" to [[Wollyhop]]s and "Caustic Dweevils" to [[Hydro Dweevil]]s). So regardless (as far as English players are concerned), these two lithopods are different species.

=== ''NA Canon'' Beetle ===
The polices of this wiki state we must follow the canon of the NA ENGLISH version of each release. The HCB has a different name and a different a sci. name. It also means we can't jump to any conclusions no matter how obvious they seem, such as claiming the [[Emperor Bulblax]] in ''Pikmin 1'' is retroactively a [[Sovereign Bulblax]].

tl;dr: this page should probably not exist but policy states it must. [[Floaterbie family]] part 2. -'''[[User:Bossclips|Bossclips]]'''

:The different scientific name doesn't mean anything. The Armored Cannon Beetle was only ''Granitus chukkulinae'' in ''Pikmin''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s guide, and it seems ''Pikmin 4''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s translators didn't refer to that guide when translating, leading to some inconsistencies ("''Lapis regrettabilis''" vs "''Ostrum mandimuscae''", "Blaxcap" vs "Bulborel").
:EDIT: So I just looked up the Japanese version of the Piklopedia entry, and (while I don't speak the language) I have two observations, both regarding the sentence 「ヤマトイシツツミの成虫に思えるが、実は大陸から飛来して帰化した外来種である。」(''Although it appears to be an adult [[Armored Cannon Larva|Yamatoishitsutsumi]], it is actually a non-native species that flew in from the continent and has become naturalized.''):
:# Unlike the English version, there is no mention of it being "originally misclassified", so that was added specifically to the English translation, seemingly to explain the rename, like what happened with the Red Bulborb (the Japanese notes for that enemy didn't mention the rename either).
:# The second half of that sentence is strikingly similar to the Armored Cannon Beetle's ending reel text in ''Pikmin'', right down to the wording: 「大陸から飛来、帰化した外来種。」(''A non-native species that flew in from the continent and has become naturalized.'')
:[[User:2 B|2 B]] ([[User talk:2 B|talk]]) 16:20, August 18, 2023 (EDT)

== One last thing ==

Hi, ninpan here. These pages should still be merged. Olimar says the Horned Cannon Beetle was mistaken for an adult Armored Cannon Beetle, saying it's ACTUALLY a non-native, migrant species. Implying that the Armored Cannon Beetle ISN'T, when we know it absolutely is according to Pikmin 1. These pages should be merged, wiki policy doesn't apply here. -Ninpan

"Implied" is not objective evidence. They have a different species name, they are a different species. Not our fault. -'''[[User:Bossclips|Bossclips]]'''

:What would you say distinguishes this from the "spotty bulborb" -> "red bulborb" rename? "Though once mistaken for adult Armored Cannon Beetles" isn't that different from "Originally classified as the spotty bulborb", I'd say, and I explained in the section above why the scientific name specifically isn't a good argument. [[User:2 B|2 B]] ([[User talk:2 B|talk]]) 12:26, August 19, 2023 (EDT)

Idk what to tell you, it's a different species. "Once mistaken" is far more vague than "Original classified". The latter directly addresses that former name and what it was changed to. "Once mistaken" could just as well mean "it looked like the one from Pikmin 1" as it does "i thought the one from Pikmin 1 was an ACB but it wasnt".  Again, this really isn't out fault, we're just documenting what the NA game is doing. The best way to fix it from here is to contact the translators and get the full story cause we've done all we can do. -'''[[User:Bossclips|Bossclips]]'''

An in regards to the scientific name, them ignoring content from the ''Pikmin'' player's guide makes sense: we do the same thing. It was always very dubious canon since only a handful of examples crossed-over into ''Pikmin 2''. The various changes made in ''Pikmin 4'' lead me to believe (even if they considered it canon at the time), they no longer do. The only two we can't say that for are [[Goolix]] (who we only "know" is in the [[Goolix family]] cause it's named after him) and the Armored Cannon Beetle. -'''[[User:Bossclips|Bossclips]]'''

:The "it looked like the one from Pikmin 1" interpretation is unlikely, because "adult Armored Cannon Beetles" is acting as a translation of 「ヤマトイシツツミの成虫」(adult [[Armored Cannon Larva|Yamatoishitsutsumi]]), which is specifically referring to an adult Armored Cannon (Beetle) Larva. If we accept that "adult <insert beetle name here>" is acting as a translation of "adult <insert beetle name here>", then Olimar is saying that the "Horned Cannon Beetle" was once mistaken for a grown up Armored Cannon Larva, referred to here as an Armored Cannon Beetle probably due to the contradiction in combining the words "adult" and "larva". [[User:2 B|2 B]] ([[User talk:2 B|talk]]) 13:33, August 19, 2023 (EDT)
:By the way, '''''if''''' the rename theory is correct, then we currently have:
:*{{icon|Horned Cannon Beetle|v=P4|y}} - introduced in ''Pikmin''; previously known as Armored Cannon Beetle
:*{{icon|Armored Cannon Larva|v=P4|y}} - introduced in ''Pikmin 2''; previously known as Armored Cannon Beetle Larva
:*Armored Cannon Beetle - an unseen adult version of the Armored Cannon Larva; mentioned in the Horned Cannon Beetle's notes
:[[User:2 B|2 B]] ([[User talk:2 B|talk]]) 15:37, August 19, 2023 (EDT)

"Unlikely" isn't a confirmation. And again, you're using evidence from other languages. We're talking about the english canon. -'''[[User:Bossclips|Bossclips]]'''

:If something in the English text is ambiguous, but the original script can provide context for the intended meaning, then it seems silly to ignore it... but whatever, at least the article does a fine enough job of explaining the situation. [[User:2 B|2 B]] ([[User talk:2 B|talk]]) 12:41, August 20, 2023 (EDT)

I̶ ̶m̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶I̶ ̶s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶O̶l̶i̶m̶a̶r̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶"̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶"̶ ̶a̶ ̶m̶i̶g̶r̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶s̶p̶e̶c̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶c̶r̶e̶t̶e̶ ̶e̶v̶i̶d̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶m̶o̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶n̶o̶n̶ ̶b̶e̶e̶t̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶b̶i̶r̶t̶h̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶a̶r̶v̶a̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶n̶'̶t̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶h̶a̶p̶p̶e̶n̶s̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶ ̶i̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶d̶  -Ninpan

: It seems really dumb to treat the English translations as the ultimate canon.. as opposed to the Japanese versions, which was where the game was created. We've seen English localisation teams self-correct when they makes translation mistakes, as is the case with the Doodlebug, Empress Bublax/Bulborb Larva... Why can't we just fix mistakes we know are mistakes? You know, this Beetle debacle, Chrysanthemum/Dandelion Family confusion... [[User:Alexfc|Alexfc]]

::Yeah, it would be one thing if what the localization says contradicted the Japanese version here, but it doesn't. It's just more ambiguous, and the fact that the Japanese version clears up that ambiguity is being ignored because reasons. [[User:2 B|2 B]] ([[User talk:2 B|talk]]) 16:02, September 9, 2023 (EDT)

If we were to use everything canon in the Japanese version but not in the English version, we would need to correct a very large amount of the wiki's pages. It's not really worth the effort when it would technically be more inaccurate. The rule is ultimately there to provide accuracy above all else, and opening up the door to picking-and-choosing which region differences are correct would be a mess of an idea. It's ambiguous in English, therefore we document it ambiguously. -'''[[User:Bossclips|Bossclips]]'''

:A lot of things are ambiguous. They're implied, but not explicitly stated. The woman that sends Louie mail in Pikmin 2 is his nana, but that's not explicitly stated in the English version, for instance. [[User:2 B|2 B]] ([[User talk:2 B|talk]]) 16:34, September 9, 2023 (EDT)

Yes. It's ambiguous in English, therefore we document it ambiguously. -'''[[User:Bossclips|Bossclips]]'''

I think the page covers the issue just fine, even if I personally would prefer the pages be merged. --[[User:NintendoPanda101|NintendoPanda101]] ([[User talk:NintendoPanda101|talk]]) 18:44, September 9, 2023 (EDT)

I know this won't change anything, since it's from a Japanese source, but I thought I'd say it here anyway: Pikmin Garden was updated with information on Armored and Horned, and the Armored Cannon Larva is explicitly described as a native species, unlike the Horned Cannon Beetle. In Pikmin 1, the Armored Cannon Beetle was explicitly NOT a native species. [[User:2 B|2 B]] ([[User talk:2 B|talk]]) 12:52, December 30, 2023 (EST)