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Pikipedia:Proposals: Difference between revisions
Started a large multi-part discussion about the future of how we cover canon and regional differences on Pikipedia. (I originally said I was going to do this yesterday, and in the time since then a discussion on part of this topic has already started, but this can be incorporated into this larger discussion while still making sense.)
(Started a large multi-part discussion about the future of how we cover canon and regional differences on Pikipedia. (I originally said I was going to do this yesterday, and in the time since then a discussion on part of this topic has already started, but this can be incorporated into this larger discussion while still making sense.)) |
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:::: At least now we have the Piklopedia icons from Pikmin 2 switch, that gives us the original artwork in the highest possible quality. And from what I can tell, they aren't AI upscaled either.--[[User:NintendoPanda101|NintendoPanda101]] ([[User talk:NintendoPanda101|talk]]) 11:36, September 10, 2023 (EDT) | :::: At least now we have the Piklopedia icons from Pikmin 2 switch, that gives us the original artwork in the highest possible quality. And from what I can tell, they aren't AI upscaled either.--[[User:NintendoPanda101|NintendoPanda101]] ([[User talk:NintendoPanda101|talk]]) 11:36, September 10, 2023 (EDT) | ||
== | == Canon and regional differences on Pikipedia == | ||
Pikipedia's [[Pikipedia:Canon policy|canon policy]] and treatment of regional differences are in need of significant changes. This is prompted by the release of {{p1+2}}, which made significant changes to the first two games, and {{p4}}, which greatly complicated the canon of the series, as well as more long-term issues like the inconsistent coverage of information from non-English versions of the games, and the unusual structure of the [[Canon]] and [[Pikipedia:Canon policy]] pages. This is a complex topic with multiple interacting parts, so this proposal has multiple parts to it as well, which are covered in subsections. There should be discussion on each part to reach a consensus before a final vote is held. — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 01:05, December 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
=== Regional differences === | |||
--[[User:Nvortex|Nvortex]] ([[User talk:Nvortex|talk]]) 00:31, December 28, 2023 (EST) | Currently, [[Pikipedia:Canon policy]] states that the North American English version of each ''Pikmin'' game is the most canon version for the wiki. Whatever is true in this version should be documented first, then the European version, then the Japanese version. The reason for this is that Pikipedia is written in American English and that most readers are from that part of the world. This approach has some problems though and has led to disagreements, particularly in the [[Armored Cannon Beetle]]/[[Horned Cannon Beetle]] debate. Another issue is that for the first two games there's a difference between a ''regional version'' of a game (the three discs with slight differences, distributed in Japan, Europe, and North America), and a ''localization'' of a game (the translations into the many languages the games are available in). I've written about this issue more in [[Talk:Region]]. It's pretty clear this policy needs an update, so let's discuss. — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 01:05, December 28, 2023 (EST) | ||
: While a majority of the Canon policy seems perfectly fine, one section that I believe needs to be rewritten, is the Conflicts section of the policy, referring to Japanese text being considered non-canon. This simply sounds like we no longer care about accurate information when it comes to documentation. Official English translations have a notorious history to, in some cases, completely change character personalities, or story context, or even just incorrectly name items, and simply ignoring the original Japanese text, which is the true description of a franchise like Pikmin, a Japanese-made game, feels like we simply don't care. | |||
:Notable current examples on the wiki involving erroneous, official English translations: | |||
:# The Armored Cannon Beetle vs Horned Cannon Beetle. We even document on both articles that it is a mistranslation in Pikmin 1, and that the Japanese text calls them the same thing. | |||
:# The relation between the Armored Cannon Beetle, and the Cannon Beetle Larvae. For a long while, it was assumed that the scientific name was what was mistranslated, but as of 4, again, an error in translation in 2. | |||
:# Hey! Pikmin family names. Numerous family names in Hey Pikmin have incorrectly translated Family names. For example, the Electric Spectralid is part of the Floaterbie family, rather than the Flutterbie family, despite in the original Japanese text, both families are イエシジミ科 . In fact, English is the only language with these kinds of issues. | |||
:I understand there are concerns with changing a policy like this, as it effects the whole wiki, past, present, and future. However, as stated previous, accuracy of information should be our top priority, and throwing the original Japanese text away for what seems to be pure convenience, sets a poor example of not only how the wiki is structured, but also sets a poor precedence for other wikis. This policy, to my understanding, was added back in 2014, which was a time it was difficult to really get reliable information about Japanese text for not only games, but media in general. However, in the past nearly 10 years, not only has more reliable methods of acquiring, and translating the original text now much easier and far more reliable; Google Translate has vastly improved, and deepL, an AI neural machine translator, has become extremely popular for it's accurate translations. On top of that, it is now extremely easy to communicate and talk with native Japanese speakers, and to my understand, some Japanese speakers do use our wiki, as there isn't really a Japanese Pikmin Wiki. I think this policy is just simply outdated, and needs an overhaul to meet with modern standards, especially with Pikmin now being a very international game, with games like Bloom and 4 being popular around the world. | |||
:--[[User:Jpmrocks|JPM]] ([[User talk:Jpmrocks|talk]]) 23:23, December 27, 2023 (EST) | |||
::I'm in favor of taking into account things written in the original language because for the people who are interested in learning all about Pikmin coming to this wiki, they would find it interesting to learn about things they missed or had no way of figuring out, the information really doesn't even need major portions of an article written for them, they can just be written under trivia. | |||
::--[[User:Nvortex|Nvortex]] ([[User talk:Nvortex|talk]]) 00:31, December 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
=== | === The nature of canon === | ||
Before the release of {{p4}}, the ''Pikmin'' series had a simple timeline, with only minor conflicts between games. However, ''Pikmin 4'' has broken this, as its story is in some ways a retelling of the first game that introduces many details that conflict with other games. This has forced a major rewrite of the [[Canon]] article, but I feel the current state of the article is not ideal. We need to work out not only how to restructure this article, but also how to change the canon policy to deal with the fact that games can have contradicting facts. It's possible future games will introduce more contradictions, so working this out now would be a good idea. — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 01:05, December 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
=== | === ''Pikmin 1+2'' changes === | ||
The GameCube and Wii versions of {{p1}} and {{p2}} have 3 regional versions: the Japanese version, US version, and European version, with the US and European versions having several language options. These versions have various differences, especially in ''Pikmin 2'' where the treasures in each version are different. However, the [[Pikmin 1+2|Switch port of these games]] has merged the versions, so there is only one version of the game, based on the US Wii version, that has all the language options from the older versions plus some new ones. This means that treasures that were previously exclusive to the US version now have names and notes in Japanese and European languages. In addition, treasures featuring product placement of real-world brands have been redesigned to remove the product placement, and various textures including Piklopedia and Treasure Hoard icons have been replaced with higher-quality versions. This creates a big headache for the wiki as several tough decisions have to be made. | |||
Previously, treasures with regional differences could simply have each version of the treasure documented separately, either in separate articles or paragraphs depending on the treasure names. But now we have the situation where if someone's playing the GameCube or Wii versions, these differences apply, while if they're playing the Switch version, the US version applies in all regions. How do we describe this on treasure articles without making things confusing? (Pikipedia has an informal policy that newer versions of games take priority over older versions, and it might be worth either writing this down to make it official or reforming it to simplify this situation.) | |||
The treatment of icons is another issue. It would be nice to replace the 40x40px icons from the GameCube and Wii versions with the 160x160px icons from the Switch version. For Piklopedia icons this is not hard, and the icons have already been uploaded, just not used widely. But for Treasure Hoard icons this is a big challenge. The icons are for the new non-branded treasure designs, which often look different from the old designs. And since they only include treasures from the US version of the game, they may have to be shown alongside old icons in object lists when a treasure is different in the 3 regional versions of the GameCube and Wii versions. Considering the mix of icon styles that would result, it may be worth continuing to use the old icons, even for Piklopedia icons, but this would involve showing old treasure designs in object lists when the latest version of the game has a different design. There's no ideal solution, but we have to work out a solution, so that's what this discussion is for. — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 01:05, December 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
=== Structure of the canon pages === | |||
Some people (such as [[User:Flamsey|Flamsey]]) have commented that the way we document Pikipedia's position on the canon is quite strange, with some things documented on the [[Canon]] page and some things documented on [[Pikipedia:Canon policy]]. It is quite an unusual split and I'm not aware of any other game wiki that does things this way. Restructuring these pages to show the information in an easier-to-understand way would be a good idea, but how could this be done? — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 01:05, December 28, 2023 (EST) | |||