Editing Talk:Obstacle

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lqG_ulmiuE This video] shows some comparisons between the time it takes for different numbers and status Pikmin to clear various obstacles in ''Pikmin 2''. It might be helpful when we get around to trying to understand how Pikmin numbers and statuses affect obstacle speed. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 17:29, 4 January 2016 (EST)

== Add Hey! Pikmin obstacles ? ==

I'm wondering if I could add obstacles from Hey! Pikmin, and update the informations for some of them (for instance, there is electric gates in Hey! Pikmin, at least 1). [[User:Hugik|Hugik]] ([[User talk:Hugik|talk]]) 13:02, 3 September 2018 (EDT)
:Sure thing! You can probably write the links to icon images, even if they don't exist, so that they get uploaded one day. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 14:00, 10 September 2018 (EDT)
::Ok, so I think I'll do this ! Thanks ! [[User:Hugik|Hugik]] ([[User talk:Hugik|talk]]) 15:43, 10 September 2018 (EDT)

== Articles for Heavy Obstacle and High Ledge? ==

This article's big list has links to specific pages about all of the obstacles, with the exception of 3 items in the list: 'Buried treasure, fruit, or Sparklium Seeds', 'High ledges', and 'Purple Pikmin needed'. While the first one's link to the [[Dig]] article works, the other 2 deserve articles in my opinion. An article for '''[[Heavy obstacle]]''' could talk about the required use of Purple Pikmin to push down the paper bag in the Awakening Wood, as well as collecting the Spherical Atlas, Geographic Projection, and Doomsday Apparatus (as they are obstacles to completing the game). While the Purple Pikmin article already has a list of [[Purple Pikmin#Mandatory uses|mandatory uses]], these uses are tied to the obstacle of heavy weights, just as the mandatory uses of Yellow Pikmin are tied to electricity or high ledges, and the mandatory uses of Blue Pikmin are tied to water. An article for '''[[High ledge]]''' would be even more useful, as several ship parts, treasures, and fruits are made harder to access by being too high for most types to reach, and this is an obstacle with enough information to describe it, especially considering the various exploits to bypass the height barrier. Do these topics deserve their own articles, or is their current coverage good enough? - [[User:Botanist|Botanist]] ([[User talk:Botanist|talk]]) 18:49, July 12, 2020 (EDT)
:I'm starting to debate if they should even count in the first place. An obstacle should be something that is in the way of your goal, so I guess something being too heavy to carry normally, or too high to reach can count as an obstacle. But if we define obstacles as actual objects, then the notions of weight and height don't really count. I think it's fine to keep them, but there is merit in getting rid of them too. Anyway, I think simply linking to the Purple Pikmin and Yellow Pikmin articles for those two "obstacles" is enough... There is nothing that can be said about heavy obstacles that isn't explained in the Purple Pikmin article, and if the reader wants a list of such obstacles, they have the recommended and mandatory uses listed in that same article. Same goes for high ledges and Yellow Pikmin. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 07:18, July 16, 2020 (EDT)

== Obstacles and Objects ==

I think that the term "obstacle" is now being used too broadly. An obstacle (according to this article's introduction) is something that stands in the way of Pikmin and leaders and (generally) must be overcome to access another part of the area. But many things in the list of obstacles do not fit this definition. [[Bouncy Mushroom]]s, [[conveyor belt]]s, [[electrode]]s, and [[lily pad]]s are not literally obstacles. While some tasks require them to be switched on in order to access another part of the area, this is not always the case. I think that the term "obstacle" is being used too broadly on this wiki, and we should be using "'''object'''" instead to describe these kinds of things. "Object" is a handy term that can be used to describe all kinds of interactable objects, which seems to be the main thing that distinguishes the items on the list already &ndash; they are objects in areas that can be interacted with that are not enemies or collectibles. The term could also be used more broadly to describe things like [[bomb rock]]s and [[nectar weed]]. In fact, nearly everything in all areas is either an enemy, collectible, object, or part of the background scenery. I don't think the term "obstacle" shouldn't be used at all, as many objects are definitely obstacles, and I think there should be an article for Obstacle on this wiki. But I think that this article should be renamed to Object, and we should change the terminology around these things across Pikipedia. &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 19:25, June 30, 2021 (EDT)

:I definitely think we should improve the definitions a lot. Though I don't agree with the term "object". In game development, an object can be anything from something the player can pick up, to literally everything that populates the game world and isn't terrain; Pikmin games use the latter IIRC. So not only is "object" too vague, but since everything is an object, obstacles are just a subset of objects. There must be a better term here... &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 14:11, July 12, 2021 (EDT)

::"Interactive object" could work, but sounds a bit silly, and not all obstacles are interactive. Perhaps a solution could be to distinguish between obstacles and non-obstacle interactive objects (like Flukeweeds or seesaw blocks). &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 03:44, July 18, 2021 (EDT)
::I'll try to come up with a subjective classification system, categorizing the things currently listed on this article as either "obstacles" or "interactive objects".
::*'''Obstacles''': [[Bamboo gate]], [[boulder]], [[bramble gate]], [[brick wall]], [[bridge]], buried items, [[cardboard box]], [[clog]], [[cobblestone block]], [[crystal wall]], [[dam]], [[dirt block]], [[dirt wall]], [[electric gate]], [[electrical wire]], [[fire geyser]], [[flames]], [[gas pipe]], high ledge, [[hydroe bramble]], [[icicle crystal]], [[iron block]], [[paper bag]], heavy weights, [[reinforced wall]], [[tin box]], [[trowel]], [[tunnel]], [[water]], [[wooden stake]]
::*'''Interactive objects''': [[Arachnode web]], [[Bouncy Mushroom]], [[Burgeoning Spiderwort mold]], [[clipboard]], [[conveyor belt]], [[crystal nodule]], [[dirt mound]], [[elevator platform]], [[Flukeweed]], [[geyser]], [[lily pad]], [[seesaw block]] 
::*'''Ambiguous''': [[Bloominous Stemple]], [[climbing stick]], [[electrode]], [[fragment]]s, [[hay]], [[iron ball]], [[Kingcap]], [[large crystal]], [[liftable rock]], [[pulley rock]], [[small crystal]], [[Spotcap]]
::As you can see, there's a fair bit of ambiguity and subjectivity. I'd even argue that [[boulder]]s and [[icicle crystal]]s aren't even obstacles, they're just [[hazard]]s. Most of the ambiguous items are ambiguous because they are connected to an obstacle without being an obstacle on their own, or have the potential to be either obstacles or not obstacles. While it makes sense to separate non-obstacle interactive objects from the other obstacles, is it worth doing if the result would lead to so many ambiguities? Or is there another way to define these kinds of objects with less ambiguity? &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:54, September 24, 2021 (EDT)

:::Hazards define an abstract danger. Impaling is a hazard, but the icicle crystals are physical objects. So defining those as hazards isn't right, IMO.
:::Maybe the problem is that we're trying to categorize things that shouldn't be categorized. After all, I don't think even the games themselves make any distinction. Sure, some obstacles are internally enemies because it's easier to code them for things like HP and all, but other than that, things are just "objects" and that's all. Maybe the page should be about interactive objects, and then we can split them subjectively in a clear, non-technical way, like dangerous objects, helpful objects, objects that are in the way of carrier Pikmin, etc. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 12:28, September 30, 2021 (EDT)

::::Ooh, that's a good idea. Let's try to classify the list again.
::::*'''Barriers''': [[Bamboo gate]], [[bramble gate]], [[brick wall]], [[bridge]], [[cardboard box]], [[cobblestone block]], [[crystal wall]], [[dirt block]], [[dirt wall]], [[electric gate]], [[iron block]], [[paper bag]] (''Pikmin 2)'', [[reinforced wall]], [[tin box]], [[trowel]], [[tunnel]], [[wooden stake]]
::::*'''Soft barriers''': [[Arachnode web]], [[electrical wire]], [[fire geyser]], [[flames]], [[gas pipe]], [[paper bag]] (''Pikmin 3''), [[water]]
::::*'''Sometimes barriers''': [[Kingcap]], [[large crystal]], [[small crystal]], [[Spotcap]]
::::*'''Dangerous objects''': [[Boulder]], [[hydroe bramble]], [[icicle crystal]]
::::*'''Puzzle objects''': [[Bloominous Stemple]], [[electrode]], [[elevator platform]], [[liftable rock]], [[pulley rock]], [[seesaw block]]
::::*'''Terrain objects''': [[Bouncy Mushroom]], [[climbing stick]], [[conveyor belt]], [[geyser]], [[lily pad]]
::::*'''Item blockers''': [[Burgeoning Spiderwort mold]], buried items, [[clipboard]], [[dirt mound]], [[flukeweed]], high ledges
::::*'''Other''': [[Clog]], [[crystal nodule]], [[dam]], [[fragments]], [[hay]], [[iron ball]], heavy weights
::::This system works a lot better and is more useful: it separates the traditional obstacles (the "Barriers" category) from other types of objects that can get in the way or interactive things that are part of the environment. But it's not perfect, as evidenced by the fact that I couldn't categorize everything in the list and had to put some things into an "Other" category (though after doing this, I don't think fragments or crystal nodules should count as obstacles). Plus, some of the categories are a bit weird. Could this kind of categorization be done better? &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:34, September 30, 2021 (EDT)

:::::Let me try. Also I'd say high ledges and stuff like that is just a concept, not an object, so I'm fine with getting rid of them.
:::::*'''Barriers''': same, but include P3 paper bag, Kingcap, clipboard, and dam. Basically anything static (as in, it doesn't move on its own) that stays in the way of some goal and does nothing else.
:::::*'''Dangerous obstacles''': Arachnode web, electrical wire, fire geyser, flames, gas pipe, water, hydroe bramble. Basically anything static that can be dangerous.
:::::*'''Traps''': boulder, icicle crystal. Basically, anything dynamic that goes out of its way to cause harm.
:::::*'''Containers''': crystals, Spotcap, dirt mound, flukeweed, egg. Basically anything that can (not always) contain something good inside.
:::::*'''Puzzle elements''': same. Basically, anything whose purpose in the gameplay, and in the world, is to just provide some puzzle challenge.
:::::*'''Transporter''': Bouncy Mushroom, geyser, lily pad. Basically, anything that transports Pikmin and leaders elsewhere.
:::::*'''Tools''': climbing stick, conveyor belt, fragments, hay, iron ball. Basically anything that serves no purpose other than to be exploited by the Pikmin to reach some goal.
:::::*'''Breakable objects''': Burgeoning Spiderwort mold, crystal nodule.
:::::I feel like it's not there yet, but I think this is going to be an iterative thing. It'll go through many iterations till we reach something that makes sense. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 17:10, October 5, 2021 (EDT)

::::::I really like your "Traps" and "Dangerous obstacles" categories; they're definitely useful, and the rest of the categories are in the right direction. But there are a few difficult things to categorize.
::::::Some of the most difficult are Spotcaps/Kingcaps and small/large crystals. On their own, they are rarely barriers, but are often found in groups that act as barriers. But it's never the case that you have to destroy all of the mushrooms/crystals in the group, just some of them. Plus, they can all hold items. So that's why I put them in a separate category, since their functions are so broad and different from everything else.
::::::The "Puzzle objects" category is also a difficult one, because its objects can serve as barriers, but also tools and transporters. Most obstacles can be puzzles in some way, it's just that the puzzle objects are more like puzzles. Is it a useful category?
::::::There's also the issue of associated objects: objects that are tied together. Here we have electrodes and Bloominous Stemples, iron balls and stone walls, fragments and bridges, and more minor things like conveyor belt switches and conveyor belts. Perhaps it would be worth putting every object whose only purpose is activating other objects into another category, such as "Activators". Though, almost every object in this category has some other function than just activating. Do we focus on the main function of each obstacle in categorization, or all its functions?
::::::Some other notes: The clipboard is more of a container, except in the 1 instance where it acts as a bridge. It could also be worthwhile having a category for objects that are associated with enemies (the Arachnode web, Burgeoning Spiderwort mold, and crystal nodule). &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 17:53, October 5, 2021 (EDT)

:::::::I feel like there's something that describes the likes of Spotcaps, crystal nodules, clipboards, etc. -- objects with barely any interactivity other than being in the way and being able to be destroyed or cleared, but their purpose comes from how they are used in the area design. If we can figure out what it is, I think we can create a very important new category. We're probably better off getting rid of puzzles like you said. "Activators" is a bit of a technical view on things, which I don't think is a good idea. I think all objects should be documented, even if they're just a part of something greater (e.g. fragments to bridges), even if that means they are both part of different categories. I think a category for enemy objects would actually make sense! More enemies have associated objects, like a Breadbug's nest, and the "enemy object" (name pending) category sounds like a regular good category, since the reader can right away understand these type of objects don't do much by themselves, and are used as tools by enemies to achieve their goals. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 15:25, October 9, 2021 (EDT)

::::::::OK, so here's where we're at now:
::::::::*'''Barriers''': [[Bamboo gate]], [[bramble gate]], [[brick wall]], [[bridge]], [[cardboard box]], [[cobblestone block]], [[crystal wall]], [[dam]], [[dirt block]], [[dirt wall]], [[electric gate]], [[iron block]], [[paper bag]], [[reinforced wall]], [[tin box]], [[trowel]], [[tunnel]], [[wooden stake]]
::::::::*'''Dangerous obstacles''': [[Electrical wire]], [[fire geyser]], [[flames]], [[gas pipe]], [[hydroe bramble]], [[water]]
::::::::*'''Traps''': [[Boulder]], [[icicle crystal]]
::::::::*'''Enemy objects''': [[Arachnode web]], [[Burgeoning Spiderwort mold]], [[crystal nodule]], [[Arctic Cannon Larva|snowball]]
::::::::*'''Containers''': [[Clipboard]], [[dirt mound]], [[egg]], [[Flukeweed]]
::::::::*'''Transporters''': [[Bouncy Mushroom]], [[conveyor belt]], [[geyser]], [[lily pad]]
::::::::*'''Hard to categorize 1''': [[Kingcap]], [[large crystal]], [[small crystal]], [[Spotcap]]
::::::::*'''Hard to categorize 2''': [[Clog]], [[conveyor switch]], [[electrode]], [[fragments]], [[hay]], [[iron ball]]
::::::::*'''Hard to categorize 3''': [[Bloominous Stemple]], [[climbing stick]], [[elevator platform]], [[liftable rock]], [[pulley rock]], [[seesaw block]]
::::::::Something else to note: we also need to consider which category each of the [[minor obstacles]] fits into. &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 21:00, October 9, 2021 (EDT)

:::::::::Ok, new approach -- I'll just list categories from the top of my head without thinking of the objects themselves. Really just think about what sorts of objects one can find in the series, and how the average reader would think of them. We'd have barriers, dangerous obstacles, traps, devices, enemy objects, destructible flora/fauna/minerals, wildlife that can be stood on/rode on/jumped on. I...think we might be able to categorize everything in to all of these? And yes, minor obstacles should be included too. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 13:23, October 11, 2021 (EDT)

::::::::::That new approach is interesting, and has reminded me of how the obstacle's treatment in gameplay should be the main factor in its categorization. In particular, your vegetation-related categories are worth including, particularly considering most articles on these objects first describe them as special vegetation, not obstacles. So perhaps we could have a category for interactive vegetation, including the Bouncy Mushroom, lily pad, Kingcap, Spotcap, and Bloominous Stemple? Though, this would be moving away from gameplay-related categorization. It's a difficult problem. Also, if were to split up the list into all these subcategories, could the minor obstacles be included on the same list, though still documented in sections rather than articles? &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:53, October 19, 2021 (EDT)

=== Newer approach ===
Ok, how about we forget the really specific categorization? Let's stick to the basics.
* Obstacle: Anything whose existence actively hinders the player in their pursuit of a goal.
* Tool: Anything whose existence can be used by the player to help in their pursuit of a goal.
We might be able to lump everything into these two categories. I don't think there's anything that's ambiguous. Even objects that kinda apply to both will have one they apply much more to (e.g. cardboard boxes can be climbed on top of, but they're mainly in the way). From these two categories, we can sub-divide further. Or just stay with this two-way categorization. Also yeah, minor obstacles would be included in the list like any other entry, but since there isn't much to say about them, their info should still just be confined to a section. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 15:10, October 25, 2021 (EDT)
:Alright, now that ''Pikmin Bloom'' has been out for a few months, it's time to return to this discussion. I think that simpler classification is great &ndash; it's effectively going back to the "Obstacles"/"Interactive objects" distinction that this discussion started with, but with better terminology. And it also provides a way to classify objects that are not interactive yet are also not a part of the basic scenery. Let's see how this categorization attempt goes:
:*'''Obstacles''': [[Arachnode web]], [[bamboo gate]], [[boulder]], [[bramble gate]], [[brick wall]], [[Burgeoning Spiderwort mold]], buried items, [[cardboard box]], [[clipboard]], [[clog]], [[cobblestone block]], [[crystal nodule]], [[crystal wall]], [[dam]], [[dirt block]], [[dirt wall]], [[electric gate]], [[electrical wire]], [[fire geyser]], [[flames]], [[gas pipe]], high ledges, [[hydroe bramble]], [[icicle crystal]], [[iron block]], [[Kingcap]], [[large crystal]], [[paper bag]], heavy item, [[reinforced wall]], [[small crystal]], [[Spotcap]], [[tin box]], [[trowel]], [[tunnel]], [[water]] body, [[wooden stake]]
:*'''Tools''': [[Bloominous Stemple]], [[Bouncy Mushroom]], [[climbing stick]], [[conveyor belt]], [[dirt mound]], [[electrode]], [[elevator platform]], [[Flukeweed]], [[fragment]]s, [[geyser]], [[hay]], [[iron ball]], [[liftable rock]], [[lily pad]], [[pulley rock]], [[seesaw block]]
:*'''Minor obstacles''': sand sink-pit, dew droplet, electric mushroom, large snowball, poison geyser, solid dirt block, spiked pine cone
:*'''Minor tools''': floating bottle, leaf platform, metal pipe, rusted rod, water sac
:That only leaves one unclear case: is a [[bridge]] an obstacle or a tool? I think this system works great otherwise. &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 00:05, March 10, 2022 (EST)
::Great! Yeah, a bridge is kinda both, huh... But I guess if we think about it practically, the ''water body'' is the obstacle, the ''bridge'' is a tool used to surpass that obstacle. I vote for bridges being tools. This logic can also probably be applied to other cases, like water sac vs fire, high ledge vs Bouncy Mushroom, etc. That said, we might be able to further sub-divide, or at least sub-divide the obstacle list. Maybe between man-made and natural? Or between harmful and simply "in the way"? &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 17:07, March 19, 2022 (EDT)
:::Well, more important than the subdivision of the list is the process by which this article will be split. There are a lot of pages that link to the Obstacle article, mostly due to the row in [[Template:Infobox area]], and also all the images and templates for the different types of obstacles/tools. Splitting the article in two would require updating the area infobox template and all the pages that use it, which would be a lot of work. We'd also have to consider what to do about [[Template:Obstacles]] (perhaps it could be used for both), and there are likely other things that would have to be changed. So there's a lot to do; how should we go about this? &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 19:19, March 19, 2022 (EDT)
::::I'd honestly recommend we start from a clean slate on this. As more Pikmin games get released, we can't keep accumulating technical debt by lumping everything as an "obstacle". We should start splitting now, which means fixing everything, including all of those links. I actually don't think there are that many. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 11:06, March 20, 2022 (EDT)
:::::Alright, so what's the process for doing this?
:::::# Create a new [[Tool]] article, very similar to the Obstacle article, but with only the tools in the table.
:::::# Remove all the tools from the table in the Obstacle article.
:::::# Either split or rename the [[Minor obstacles]] article.
:::::# Reorganize [[Template:Obstacles]].
:::::# Create a new parameter in [[Template:Infobox area]], and go through all 63 area articles to use the parameter.
:::::# Go to all articles about tools and update their language.
:::::# Later, go though the images and templates for obstacle icons and recategorize them.
:::::That should be doable over a few days, right? I'm fine with doing most of it (though it would be good if you could help with the area articles). &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 17:17, March 20, 2022 (EDT)