Editing Talk:Submerged Castle

Uh...I hate to interject, but part of the information on the "Strategy" section is false, I have played this game a lot, and also at that, have reentered many caves, many times, and when reentering the [[Submerged Castle]], even when you defeat its boss on the final floor (Sublevel 5), and reenter the cave, the [[Waterwraith]] will still appear as it does on Sublevels 1-4. Knowing this, it is obviously surmised that the Submerged Castle will always be challenging to complete. --[[User:The Pikmin God|The Pikmin God]] 14:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Whoever wrote that walkthrough should add a waterwraith picture or some map pictures of sublevels [[User:Yoshi|Yoshi]] 10:45 10 December 2006 (UTC)

On sublevel 2, I think I remember a black wood wall blocking the area to the treasures and the Bulbmin, I didn't get to see more, the Waterwraith surprised me here.

:A gate.  It's not always like that; if you go through the game multiple times, you'll realise that most sublevel layouts randomise, so we can't specify what exactly is going to be in your way in a walkthrough, only what is most likely to pose a problem.{{User:Greenpickle/sig}}

== The Walkthrough ==

I have noticed that a large amount of the walkthrough was the person views and opinions (< Dont know if I spelled that right.) and unreccomended strategy, I had to do major cleanup on it.

== Cave picture ==

Why is the picture of Emergence Cave?

It is always the picture of the emergence cave, but I don't know why... I think that we should use the cave pictures themselves, and I would volunteer to do the photos of them.     ...but then again I don't know how to switch th pictures

Personally, I've always thought that the Submerged Castle was some kind of haunted sewer system... [http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/User:LE_the_Creator -So sayeth LE the Creator.] 16:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

You're probably right about that. But then what would the Wistful Wild caves be? They are awkward combinations of fields, playrooms, bathrooms, sewers, caves and giant metal beams... [[User:Portal-Kombat|<span style="color:blue">Portal-</span>]][[User_talk:Portal-Kombat|<span style="color:orange">Kombat</span>]]

Ya got me there. Maybe the designers just said "To heck with making this scientific!" and just reused every cave design in order to make it more... er... fitting, for lack of a better word. Besides, they've got entire MEADOWS with sun and sky UNDERGROUND. THAT MAKES SENSE, DOES IT NOT? [http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/User:LE_the_Creator -So sayeth LE the Creator.] 20:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:) actually the fields are not real. If you didn't collect any corpses up until Snagret Hole's second floor and then you get the cutscene where the research pod says they're not worth much, if you look behind the pod you can see that the background is actually a giant box (like Yoshi's Story in Melee) and there is no sun or sky, just an ominous black abyss above! [[User:Portal-Kombat|<span style="color:blue">Portal-</span>]][[User_talk:Portal-Kombat|<span style="color:orange">Kombat</span>]]

::As I recall, you can press a button which zooms the camera to the point where you can actually see the walls of the sublevel. I mean...just kind of easier I think. {{user:Jimbo Jambo/sig}}

:::I use that viewpoint all the time! Much more immersive. I just wish you didn't have to hold down the R button all the time, it should just be used like a normal camera funcion in the remakes and Pikmin 3. Anyways I know you can use that to see the walls but in order to see the black sky you need to follow the above steps. [[User:Portal-Kombat|<span style="color:blue">Portal-</span>]][[User_talk:Portal-Kombat|<span style="color:orange">Kombat</span>]]

== Glitch ==
A Glitch occured to me here, when I was entering the cave and was just landing, a Pikmin fell AWAY from the rest, leaving me with the one pikmin on a far wall, and the rest being with me. This has only occured once currently (I rarely go in anyways), but if the pikmin flew onto where an enemy is, it could be bad, it can also be bad if more pikmin fly away. This was entering sublevel 1. (P.S. Sublevel 1 has a geyser and it isn't said.) [[User:Learner2|Learner2]]

:Too rare, not important enough for a page... if that's what your asking... {{User:Crystal_lucario/Sig}}

== Sublevels ==

The sublevels randomize so much! sometimes the fiery bulblax on sublevel one is inside pool of water...--[[Special:Contributions/65.23.213.221|65.23.213.221]] 22:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

<s><nowiki>[[File:Submerged_Castle.jpg|thumb|Waterwraith]]</nowiki></s>I found a pic.--[[User:Shaty|Shaty]] 22:53, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

:Not only is that already uploaded to the wiki, as a larger version, but it's on [[Waterwraith]].{{User:Greenpickle/sig}}

== Sublevel 2 ==

I have noticed that this sublevel always stays the same, save the locations of the enemies. Noteworthy enough? {{User:RandomYoshi/sig}} 13:21, 2 November 2011 (EDT)

:I see no harm in mentioning it in the sublevel's walkthrough section.  Walkthroughs are generally a mess anyway, though... <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span> 15:01, 2 November 2011 (EDT)

::K. I think that I'll make a pic instead. Will take time, though... {{User:RandomYoshi/sig}} 15:11, 2 November 2011 (EDT)

:::Unfortunately, GP is right. <s>Maybe we could have a section in [[Areas]] that lists the resemblances? It could help make some stuff a bit more organized.</s> <sup>This part should've been a reply to [{{fullurl:Talk:Armored_Canon_Beetle|diff=66616}} this]</sup> '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 19:28, 2 November 2011 (EDT)

== Comment by Dart Monkey on 18th March 2014 ==

i completed this cave without the Waterwraith appearing even once.

Floor 1: Self explainatory. Petrify the Bulbwax (he spawned IN WATER for me)

Floor 2: Work quickly, and keep in mind there are 3 dwarf orange bulborbs in the level. 1 is out in the open, 1 is either near the other one, or near one of the treasures. I think the third falls out of the sky, so monitor shipments if you have time.

Floor 3: I can barely remember details about this one. I got lucky and the Withering Blowhog with the Activity Arouser spawned right next to my base, so that helped. Use Bulbmin to take home items if you haven't destroyed the electrity generators or all of the Anode Beetles, but it's probably faster just to swarm it with flowered pikmin/bulbmin after you destroy everything.

Floor 4: The hardest one for sure. To get this floor done deathless without the Waterwraith appearing, I think it's almost required to get lucky and have 1-2 treasures spawn right next to the Research Pod. I got all 3 treasures here without even exploring 60% of the floor.

Floor 5: Boss battle. Swarm the waterwraith after you hit it with a purple to break the rollers. Then just hit it with another purple and swarm it. Win. - [[User:Dart Monkey|Dart Monkey]] ([[User talk:Dart Monkey|talk]] &bull; [[Special:Contributions/Dart Monkey|contribs]])

== Comment by Dart Monkey on 22nd March 2014 ==

What name should we perfer the captains to? It's possible to enter with the President, so Olimar and Louie isn't exactly accurate, but President isn't a captain. "Leaders"? for now, I'm leaving it as captains. - [[User:Dart Monkey|Dart Monkey]] ([[User talk:Dart Monkey|talk]] &bull; [[Special:Contributions/Dart Monkey|contribs]])

== Comment by Treyarchguy on 5th July 2014 ==

Can I make an edit stating that the Waterwraith does NOT appear on the first sublevel on your first time through the cave. This can be proven. The reason is likely because there is an escape on the first floor, and on your first time through you wouldn't know what is waiting for you (On your first playthrough of the game), so the developers wanted to get you to go further the first time, instead of having it appear and have you using the exit as an escape to get away from the Waterwraith out of fear. Yup, they wanted you to get stuck having to finish the cave after discovering the Waterwraith. 

Having a cave exit on the first floor is kind of eerie considering the creepy music from a first time player's point of view, like a warning something is waiting for you, and that is your last chance to escape before you are in the territory of the Waterwraith. - [[User:Treyarchguy|Treyarchguy]] ([[User talk:Treyarchguy|talk]] &bull; [[Special:Contributions/Treyarchguy|contribs]])

:No it does appear on the first floor, just takes longer to spawn, if I'm correct. If it's not longer, perhaps the sublevel is so short that you can finish it before it spawns. - [[User:AeroBlaze777|AeroBlaze777]] ([[User talk:AeroBlaze777|talk]] &bull; [[Special:Contributions/AeroBlaze777|contribs]])

:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRtPasMkRBU - [[User:AeroBlaze777|AeroBlaze777]] ([[User talk:AeroBlaze777|talk]] &bull; [[Special:Contributions/AeroBlaze777|contribs]])

== Comment by Treyarchguy on 5th July 2014 ==

AeroBlaze777, I think you are correct actually because it is an easier floor, 1, and 2, I watched a Chuggaaconroy playthrough, and he did take 8 minute on the first floor. Maybe it does take longer, or the guy in the video did not get the treasures on his first time through. I am not quite sure. - [[User:Treyarchguy|Treyarchguy]] ([[User talk:Treyarchguy|talk]] &bull; [[Special:Contributions/Treyarchguy|contribs]])

== The Waterwraith being damaged early via Cheating. ==

I can provide proof that the Waterwraith can be damaged in earlier sublevels, however it can only be done through an "Instant Kill" code. Would you like me to send proof of my claim that this is the only way that the monster can be damaged?--[[User:TheTruth23|TheTruth23]] ([[User talk:TheTruth23|talk]]) 02:31, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

:Good point, but we don't cover Action Replay cheats on Pikipedia; [[Pikipedia:General content policy#Game modifications|see here]]. {{User:PikFan23/sig}} 02:44, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

::Very well. But, even if that is not an acceptable method of doing it, PikFan, I ''can'' prove something else through this little experiment. After watching the Waterwraith die in Sublevel 2 with the code, 5 minutes later when it arrived, out came the [[Professional Noisemaker]] upon death. So yeah, it can be proven for a fact that the Waterwraith is coded to drop the item upon defeat... however, I have yet to prove the "Would the monster return, even if it should die and the treasure is collected?" Funny thing about is that, if I'm not remembering wrong, don't some bosses come back even after you've annihilated them?--[[User:TheTruth23|TheTruth23]] ([[User talk:TheTruth23|talk]]) 04:10, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

:::All monsters in Pikmin 2 that hold treasures respawn upon returning to the area, even when the treasure is collected. In fact, overworld monsters respawn more often. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 04:19, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

:::I'm not quite sure what is it that you mean when you say you killed it in sublevel 2 and then it arrived five minutes later. Anyway, my idea was more along the lines of "forcing the game to include Purples when you land" and not so much a one-hit kill code. As for the question of it returning, yeah, that's moot. Of course it returns, sans treasure. I'll change the todo. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 06:38, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

::::To Espyo, I meant to say "first, after it arrived after waiting for five minutes, and after the cutscene, because of the Instant Kill code (Pressing Z + 2 on the Wiimote beforehand), it died after the rollers fell apart, shortly after the cutscene of its' arrival (the one the Ship mentions about it having a physical form elsewhere) and had dropped the Noisemaker."--[[User:TheTruth23|TheTruth23]] ([[User talk:TheTruth23|talk]]) 09:43, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

:::::Oh, I see. Still, if we could get footage of Purple Pikmin instead, that'd be better... &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 15:54, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

::::::Yeah, but it's been proven that we can't bring Purple Pikmin in beforehand, let alone any other type... hacking is ruled out as a way to do it here, and being fancy in trying to do it obviously doesn't work. So, it looks like hacking is the only way to go in damaging the Waterwraith early.--[[User:TheTruth23|TheTruth23]] ([[User talk:TheTruth23|talk]]) 16:48, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

:::::::Of course. Hacking really is the only way to get this to happen. Unless we discover some insane glitch. But the reason I prefer footage of Purples is because one-hit kill codes are always known to be a bit buggy, in a lot of games, and the point to which they change the game's logic is always debated amongst different opinions. Aren't there codes to change all Pikmin in the group to ones of another color? That should do the trick. If not, and you can get good footage of the one-hit kill code killing the Waterwraith early, I guess that'll do.

:::::::We barely need a video, come to think of it. This whole thing's a bit weird. See, the reason I added that to the trivia was because the game's developers could have just written on the files that "sublevel 1 contains a Waterwraith", "sublevel 2 contains a Waterwraith" ... "sublevel 5 contains a Waterwraith carrying the Professional Noisemaker", but instead they chose to specify that it carries the treasure in all sublevels. That's the only real thing of interest here. If you think about it from a development standpoint, it's slightly interesting, but otherwise, it's nothing worth noting. What do you all say? Should we change that bullet point to focus more on the fact that it's only interesting because of the developers' choice or should we go ahead and make it a bigger deal? &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 16:54, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

:::::::Well, there's this code that allows one to take Bulbmin with them into the cavern and allows Bulbmin (juveniles) to be used outside of caves. You're not gonna believe me when I say it: but when you use that code to spawn Bulbmin, they fall out of the sky. If I can rework it to spawn Purple Pikmin, then maybe... there just might be a chance to see the damaging of the Waterwraith early via Purple Pikmin. Going off topic, if Bulbmin are used in the field, they randomly carry a Pellet/fallen enemy to a Onion chosen randomly, like the Whites and Purples do. Was that mentioned before? I can easily prove THIS statement with snapshots of gameplay.--[[User:TheTruth23|TheTruth23]] ([[User talk:TheTruth23|talk]]) 17:01, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

::::::::Oh, that second thing isn't mentioned. Yeah, a screenshot would be great. As for the Purples, give it a try, and good luck. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 17:10, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

:::::::::Well, I'll admit they're not the ''best'' quality, but they're pictures from my game with the Bulbmin in the Field and them functioning like White and Purples in carrying stuff. What you will see in the two photos, Espyo, is [http://i.imgur.com/BKVSdl7.jpg Bulbmin out in the field] and [http://i.imgur.com/RS8Yr5W.jpg Bulbmin carrying a Pellet to a random Onion, in this case, the yellow Pellet to the Blue Onion]. 

:::::::::I hope that's adequate proof of my statement. Unfortunately, the only way to bring Bulbmin out into the field is the Gecko/Wiird code... or if you have the Gamecube Pikmin 2, with that AR code. I know hacking isn't allowed, but it's the '''only way''' I could prove this/make it possible. And no, their immunity to all hazards is not revoked even if they are out in the field; I've tested it myself. --[[User:TheTruth23|TheTruth23]] ([[User talk:TheTruth23|talk]]) 19:25, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

::::::::::Right. Well, hacking in and of itself isn't forbidden. We use all sorts of tinkers to access information we couldn't otherwise, like this. We just generally avoid talking about it because of the bad rap it has in Nintendo's eyes, plus the fact that messing with a game's behavior makes any discovery ambiguous: if you mess around with random codes or file changes and find that some text boxes have the first letter in a bigger size, is that an unused behavior for displaying the text or is it a corruption from the changes? Anyway, if you have nothing better, those will do, I guess. Upload the one where they are carrying something to the wiki. Also, I think this info will merely stay under trivia. The article's complex as-is with normal behaviors. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 04:02, 16 October 2015 (EDT)

== Proof of early damage on the Waterwraith in earlier sublevels is coming. ==

:After tinkering with the code and applying some math, I've managed to make the Purple Pikmin spawn from out the sky/into a cavern, Espyo. It looks like the desired footage of fighting the Waterwraith normally in earlier sublevels, which has yet to be seen, will be made realistic. Recording the footage will be the hard part since I don't have a camera stand and am not ambidextrous enough to hold a camera and fight the monster. Let me make it clear: I could only pull this off through hacking the game, the New Play Control! version of the game, more specifically. And no, I won't be using the Instant-Kill code; I'd have to show proof of the fight happening.--[[User:TheTruth23|TheTruth23]] ([[User talk:TheTruth23|talk]]) 12:46, 16 October 2015 (EDT)
::Done. I've added the proof in the Waterwraith page as a snapshot and mentioned that hacking is the only way to have Purple Pikmin earlier than Floor 5.--[[User:TheTruth23|TheTruth23]] ([[User talk:TheTruth23|talk]]) 15:07, 16 October 2015 (EDT)
:::All right. One question: if you defeat it early, will it still appear in other sublevels when you go down? (I think this was answered before, but I'm doing a million things at once right now, so I can't remember.) &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 15:13, 16 October 2015 (EDT)
::::Well... technically, I can answer ''half'' your question, Espyo; if you destroy the Waterwraith's first form (the rollers), it's still gonna come back in later sublevels in that very form. In other words, even if you hacked Purple Pikmin into the earlier sublevels and reduced the Waterwraith to walking and left the Waterwraith undefeated... it'd start all over again in later subelevels, health restored and everything. And actually, we did discuss that; we've stated the ghostly monster could still return.--[[User:TheTruth23|TheTruth23]] ([[User talk:TheTruth23|talk]]) 15:50, 16 October 2015 (EDT)