User:Espyo/Pikmin Wiki conversation

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A transcript of the conversation that took place on that fateful night that healed the community forever.

[18/07/2014 21:42:35] jpmrocks: Hello
[18/07/2014 21:42:44] kevin.kotleba: Hi
[18/07/2014 21:42:46] Espyo: hi
[18/07/2014 21:42:56] jpmrocks: This is an admin only chat, so its just admins
[18/07/2014 21:43:04] Espyo: right
[18/07/2014 21:43:07] jpmrocks: so
[18/07/2014 21:43:20] Espyo: we have quite a lot to talk about... not even sure where to begin
[18/07/2014 21:43:27] jpmrocks: well
[18/07/2014 21:43:41] jpmrocks: where should we start?
[18/07/2014 21:43:55] Espyo: well, you all realized that I'm an active editor on the wiki
[18/07/2014 21:43:58] Espyo: it is, for the most part, true
[18/07/2014 21:44:04] jpmrocks: yes
[18/07/2014 21:44:06] Espyo: of course, there are times when nobody feels like editing, and nothing gets done
[18/07/2014 21:44:12] Espyo: but lately I've just been going on a editing spree
[18/07/2014 21:44:20] jpmrocks: we've seen
[18/07/2014 21:44:29] jpmrocks: (we may or may not stalk pikipedia)
[18/07/2014 21:44:34] Espyo: hehe
[18/07/2014 21:44:42] Espyo: oh, one thing
[18/07/2014 21:44:51] Espyo: can Greenpickle join? he's an admin on Pikipedia
[18/07/2014 21:45:03] jpmrocks: is he active?
[18/07/2014 21:45:09] jpmrocks: like actively active
[18/07/2014 21:45:14] Espyo: not as active as me now, but he was very, very active previously
[18/07/2014 21:45:25] Espyo: plus, we constantly discuss the progress of the wiki in IRC
[18/07/2014 21:45:25] jpmrocks: he used to be a part of the pikmin wiki
[18/07/2014 21:45:31] Espyo: indeed, so did I
[18/07/2014 21:45:56] Espyo: you'll have to understand that I can't really speak for the entirety of Pikipedia when I talk, so adding him would be for the best
[18/07/2014 21:46:08] jpmrocks: is he available right now?
[18/07/2014 21:46:13] Espyo: yeah
[18/07/2014 21:46:43] jpmrocks: sure
[18/07/2014 21:46:59] Espyo: Contacto enviado para o grupo
[18/07/2014 21:47:03] Espyo: err, Skype
[18/07/2014 21:47:08] Espyo: that is /not/ what I told you to do
[18/07/2014 21:47:18] *** Espyo adicionou Greenpickle ***
[18/07/2014 21:47:20] Espyo: there
[18/07/2014 21:47:29] jpmrocks: hello
[18/07/2014 21:47:35] Greenpickle: hi
[18/07/2014 21:47:39] kevin.kotleba: Hello
[18/07/2014 21:48:00] Espyo: all right, so
[18/07/2014 21:48:07] Espyo: I trust you lot know how Pikipedia came to be
[18/07/2014 21:48:13] jpmrocks: yes
[18/07/2014 21:48:19] jpmrocks: i believe due to the update
[18/07/2014 21:48:23] Espyo: yes
[18/07/2014 21:48:26] jpmrocks: that changed the appearance
[18/07/2014 21:48:33] Espyo: ever since wikia changed to that, we couldn't stand it any more
[18/07/2014 21:48:47] Espyo: this wasn't some petty attempt to always get what we wanted
[18/07/2014 21:48:48] jpmrocks: we're curious, why is it that bad
[18/07/2014 21:49:01] Espyo: hmm? I never said being curious wasn't bad
[18/07/2014 21:49:06] jpmrocks: i mean
[18/07/2014 21:49:09] jpmrocks: the update
[18/07/2014 21:49:21] Espyo: what does that have to do with curiosity?
[18/07/2014 21:49:26] jpmrocks: i mean
[18/07/2014 21:49:37] jpmrocks: why was the update that changed how the wiki appeared bad
[18/07/2014 21:49:49] Espyo: it wasn't the appearance per se
[18/07/2014 21:49:52] Espyo: it was a violation of trust
[18/07/2014 21:49:57] jpmrocks: how so?
[18/07/2014 21:50:05] Espyo: we, as well as quite a huge number of wiki editors, trusted that wikia would be a good host
[18/07/2014 21:50:06] Espyo: and yes, it was
[18/07/2014 21:50:12] Espyo: until the change started coming
[18/07/2014 21:50:18] Espyo: the change in and of itself is not bad
[18/07/2014 21:50:28] Espyo: but people kept insisting that they did not want the new layout
[18/07/2014 21:50:31] Espyo: for several reasons
[18/07/2014 21:50:38] Espyo: all that resulted from that was...
[18/07/2014 21:50:40] Espyo: a blind eye
[18/07/2014 21:50:42] jpmrocks: there is an option to view wikis with the old layout though
[18/07/2014 21:50:48] Espyo: the wikia staff ignored the users
[18/07/2014 21:50:55 | Editado 21:50:58] Espyo: yes, I know, but again, it's not because of the layout itself
[18/07/2014 21:50:57] Greenpickle: the main problem is, they give you no choice
[18/07/2014 21:51:03] jpmrocks: the entire pre-update pikipedia is still saved
[18/07/2014 21:51:03] Greenpickle: they make changes fairly often
[18/07/2014 21:51:08] jpmrocks: and is a toggle able option to view
[18/07/2014 21:51:13] Espyo: they changed, and people had no voting on the matter
[18/07/2014 21:51:19] Espyo: this is where the violation of trust comes in
[18/07/2014 21:51:19] jpmrocks: theres a choice
[18/07/2014 21:51:21] Greenpickle: and if you want old skins to work too, you need to spend time supporting multiple skins
[18/07/2014 21:51:28] jpmrocks: ill have to look for the toggle
[18/07/2014 21:51:38] Espyo: like, if we couldn't trust the wikia staff to pick what's best for the users, how could we live happily?
[18/07/2014 21:51:45] Espyo: that's true
[18/07/2014 21:51:56] Espyo: and last I checked, most wikis don't work on the old skin, including Pikmin Wiki
[18/07/2014 21:52:06] Espyo: for one thing, the sidebar is all crooked, out of place
[18/07/2014 21:52:09] jpmrocks: i remember seeing it
[18/07/2014 21:52:16] Espyo: but again, it wasn't the new look
[18/07/2014 21:52:23] Espyo: looks are looks, and as long as they work, it's fine
[18/07/2014 21:52:37] Espyo: but the fact that the wikia staff absolutely ignored any and all feedback is...
[18/07/2014 21:52:39] Espyo: it's just awful
[18/07/2014 21:52:47] Espyo: and they made it clear that the new layout was ad-focused
[18/07/2014 21:52:52] Espyo: granted: there is nothing wrong with some ads
[18/07/2014 21:52:58] Espyo: but the new layout strongly focused on them
[18/07/2014 21:53:05] Espyo: to the point where they became obtrusive
[18/07/2014 21:53:10] jpmrocks: they add 3 ad slots
[18/07/2014 21:53:14] Espyo: this also gave wikias poor navigation
[18/07/2014 21:53:23] jpmrocks: we edited the vavigation
[18/07/2014 21:53:27] jpmrocks: nvigation
[18/07/2014 21:53:29] Espyo: I never really looked carefuly, because I use adblock for the most part
[18/07/2014 21:53:34] Espyo: you can do that on a per-wiki basis?
[18/07/2014 21:53:43] jpmrocks: yeah
[18/07/2014 21:53:47] Espyo: hm, all right
[18/07/2014 21:53:51] jpmrocks: you just can't edit the first button
[18/07/2014 21:54:04] jpmrocks: the rest of the navigation bar can be really edited
[18/07/2014 21:54:12] Espyo: you mean the bar on the left?
[18/07/2014 21:54:26] Espyo: because I'm talking about the ad space on the right
[18/07/2014 21:54:32] jpmrocks: I'm thinking of the navigation bar on the top of the wikia
[18/07/2014 21:54:36] jpmrocks: oh the ad space
[18/07/2014 21:54:39] Espyo: yeah
[18/07/2014 21:54:47] Espyo: the bar at the top never bothered me much, to be frank
[18/07/2014 21:54:47] jpmrocks: that unfortunately cannot be moved
[18/07/2014 21:54:51] Espyo: right
[18/07/2014 21:54:59] Espyo: it all came about as a consequence of the layout change back then
[18/07/2014 21:55:15] Espyo: over time, wikia just became... more self-centric
[18/07/2014 21:55:25] Espyo: like, they already showed that they didn't listen to the user's opinions
[18/07/2014 21:55:34] Espyo: they could keep their new look, but they could've at least listened to the users
[18/07/2014 21:55:44] Espyo: but not even that, it was such a power-hungry move to force the switch so abruptly
[18/07/2014 21:55:48] jpmrocks: well, i know that I've had full on conversations with ms Sanjae, the head person of wikia
[18/07/2014 21:55:53] Espyo: in complete disregard to the user's will
[18/07/2014 21:56:03] Espyo: personally? interesting
[18/07/2014 21:56:06] jpmrocks: yeah
[18/07/2014 21:56:21] jpmrocks: sure, it can take a few days for the devs to respond
[18/07/2014 21:56:25] Espyo: of course
[18/07/2014 21:56:27] jpmrocks: but they are willing to chat with users
[18/07/2014 21:56:42] Espyo: from several snippets I saw here and there, this was not the case
[18/07/2014 21:56:48] Espyo: most of the time they ignored feedback
[18/07/2014 21:56:54] Espyo: maybe on more major wikis
[18/07/2014 21:57:11] jpmrocks: they may have gone through new ownership throughout time
[18/07/2014 21:57:18] jpmrocks: the old head guy steps down
[18/07/2014 21:57:22] jpmrocks: new one steps up
[18/07/2014 21:57:26] Espyo: maybe
[18/07/2014 21:57:27] jpmrocks: initiates big change
[18/07/2014 21:57:38] jpmrocks: takes time to settle in into wikis hubbub
[18/07/2014 21:57:50] Espyo: prior to the layout change, the staff was always cooperative
[18/07/2014 21:57:53] Espyo: I still remember that
[18/07/2014 21:57:54] jpmrocks: but eventually changes how communication between wikis and dev
[18/07/2014 21:58:16] jpmrocks: they still are
[18/07/2014 21:58:21] jpmrocks: cooperative
[18/07/2014 21:58:27] Espyo: right
[18/07/2014 21:58:42] Espyo: but back when the layout change happened, them ignoring user feedback wasn't the case
[18/07/2014 21:59:25] jpmrocks: probably because the developers knew that users would be unhappy with change
[18/07/2014 21:59:38] jpmrocks: there has never been a time in history where everyone likes change with something
[18/07/2014 21:59:42] Espyo: that is true
[18/07/2014 21:59:51] Espyo: but the feedback could've changed quite a lot
[18/07/2014 21:59:57] Espyo: disregarding the feedback didn't make it better
[18/07/2014 21:59:57] jpmrocks: and they felt that this change will make editing and managing wikias far easier
[18/07/2014 22:00:08] jpmrocks: what feedback was disregarded
[18/07/2014 22:00:16] Espyo: that's just it, for everybody I contacted, and from personal experience, that wasn't the case at all
[18/07/2014 22:00:20] Espyo: if anything, managing wikias became harder
[18/07/2014 22:00:38] Espyo: and the feedback in the form of people not wanting such extreme changes in space, mostly the huge chunk of space on the right that was lost
[18/07/2014 22:00:43] Espyo: that's what I can remember the most
[18/07/2014 22:00:55] jpmrocks: huge chuck of space on the right...?
[18/07/2014 22:01:04] Espyo: where the ads are
[18/07/2014 22:01:15] Espyo: regular wikis use the entire width of the page, wikias have all the ad space on the right
[18/07/2014 22:01:25] jpmrocks: the little box on the front page?
[18/07/2014 22:01:45] Espyo: no, not the front page, any page
[18/07/2014 22:01:57] Espyo: plus they shrunk the entire layout horizontally
[18/07/2014 22:02:02] Espyo: it's so compressed
[18/07/2014 22:02:12] Espyo: you have to scroll a lot to read through an article on wikia
[18/07/2014 22:02:24] jpmrocks: they did do a recent update called darwin
[18/07/2014 22:02:31] Espyo: how recent?
[18/07/2014 22:02:38] jpmrocks: that made it so its as big as the width of the monitor/window
[18/07/2014 22:02:42] Espyo: I don't usually go on wikia, but it's been pretty much the same every time I checked
[18/07/2014 22:02:44] jpmrocks: this past christmas
[18/07/2014 22:02:52] Espyo: that can't be right
[18/07/2014 22:02:58] Espyo: everything is still incredibly compressed to me
[18/07/2014 22:03:10] Espyo: there are some good 200px of space to the left and right, doing nothing
[18/07/2014 22:03:14] Espyo: just showing the background of the wiki
[18/07/2014 22:03:48] jpmrocks: not exactly bad
[18/07/2014 22:03:59] Espyo: I find it bad, and most of the people I talked to did as well
[18/07/2014 22:04:05] Espyo: again, you have to scroll a lot more to read the page
[18/07/2014 22:04:16] Espyo: plus, combine that with the useless bar on the right, it just compresses it further
[18/07/2014 22:04:38] Espyo: maybe add a bit of space to the sides, to give padding, sure
[18/07/2014 22:04:42] jpmrocks: bars... like the background space?
[18/07/2014 22:04:43] Espyo: but not 200px each side, that's overkill
[18/07/2014 22:04:52] Espyo: no, I mean the one that shows you the most recently uploaded pictures
[18/07/2014 22:04:57] Espyo: I still fail to see the purpose in that
[18/07/2014 22:05:03] jpmrocks: oh that
[18/07/2014 22:05:08] jpmrocks: that i can agree with
[18/07/2014 22:05:23] Espyo: it's one of the things about the layout that I do not understand why the wikia staff enforces
[18/07/2014 22:05:28] Espyo: like you said, it can be changed with other themes
[18/07/2014 22:05:33] Espyo: but in their mind, this is what they want
[18/07/2014 22:05:42] Espyo: and beyond being greedy, it's just... senseless
[18/07/2014 22:05:56] jpmrocks: its not exactly about making money
[18/07/2014 22:06:02] jpmrocks: its also keeping it up and running
[18/07/2014 22:06:08] jpmrocks: with about a million wikias
[18/07/2014 22:06:14] Espyo: I do know that
[18/07/2014 22:06:22] jpmrocks: with about 600 pages per wikias, lets say
[18/07/2014 22:06:37] Espyo: but wikipedia has at least as many articles and views as all wikias combined
[18/07/2014 22:06:43] Espyo: and wikipedia does not even have a single ad
[18/07/2014 22:07:01] Espyo: the donation method works wonders on wikipedia
[18/07/2014 22:07:07] jpmrocks: yes, and very recently, they've been having to do "ad splurges"
[18/07/2014 22:07:16] Espyo: what are those?
[18/07/2014 22:07:24] jpmrocks: they barely make enough money to keep wikipedia floating
[18/07/2014 22:07:39] jpmrocks: they always ask for donations right when they're almost out of money
[18/07/2014 22:07:43] Espyo: yeah
[18/07/2014 22:07:48] jpmrocks: economically speaking, its not very smart
[18/07/2014 22:07:48] Espyo: but they're still living by
[18/07/2014 22:07:51] Espyo: it's not
[18/07/2014 22:08:02] Espyo: and, again, I don't mind one or two few ads
[18/07/2014 22:08:06] Espyo: but wikia goes a bit overboard
[18/07/2014 22:08:13] jpmrocks: I'm counting only 2 ads a page
[18/07/2014 22:08:18] Espyo: I cannot believe that all of that ad space is for keeping the servers alive
[18/07/2014 22:08:24] Espyo: hmm, last I checked, it was 3+
[18/07/2014 22:08:26] Espyo: let me disable adblock
[18/07/2014 22:08:44] jpmrocks: all the ads at the bottom are "stereotypical hosting ads"
[18/07/2014 22:08:59] Espyo: yes
[18/07/2014 22:09:22] Espyo: ads aren't necessarily the only thing, though
[18/07/2014 22:09:42] Espyo: the entire notion on focusing the efforts of wikis to be around socialism instead of the content is enauseating
[18/07/2014 22:09:59] Espyo: I still say the ads are excessive, but those aren't even that big of a thing
[18/07/2014 22:10:12] jpmrocks: um... Socialism...? thats the step right before communism
[18/07/2014 22:10:16] jpmrocks: but alright
[18/07/2014 22:10:23] Espyo: err, maybe I picked the wrong word
[18/07/2014 22:10:28] jpmrocks: like being social based
[18/07/2014 22:10:31] Espyo: out of context, I'm guessing
[18/07/2014 22:10:33] Espyo: yeah, that
[18/07/2014 22:10:59] Espyo: amongst the things I noticed, blogs are a thing, to focus more on discussions
[18/07/2014 22:11:03] Espyo: as well as... achievements
[18/07/2014 22:11:15] jpmrocks: which are all toggle able options in admin panel
[18/07/2014 22:11:19] Espyo: I... honestly cannot understand how the achievements could ever come from a sane person's mind
[18/07/2014 22:11:28] jpmrocks: from what we've found
[18/07/2014 22:11:29] Espyo: they are?
[18/07/2014 22:11:36] Espyo: aren't achievements enabled on Pikmin Wiki?
[18/07/2014 22:11:43] jpmrocks: yes
[18/07/2014 22:11:50] Espyo: what's the purpose
[18/07/2014 22:11:51] jpmrocks: we've found that it adds people to be more active
[18/07/2014 22:11:56] Espyo: in fact, it's more destructive than anything
[18/07/2014 22:12:02] jpmrocks: we have a 24-man wikis Skype call
[18/07/2014 22:12:13] Espyo: a what?
[18/07/2014 22:12:17] jpmrocks: and although were friends
[18/07/2014 22:12:26] jpmrocks: theres still the competition feeling that goes through
[18/07/2014 22:12:38] Espyo: of course, and I find that good
[18/07/2014 22:12:38] jpmrocks: we have a pikmin wiki Skype call with 24 people
[18/07/2014 22:12:42] Espyo: ah
[18/07/2014 22:12:52] Espyo: but I don't find it working well on a wiki environment
[18/07/2014 22:12:58] Espyo: after all, we are all working together for a single purpose
[18/07/2014 22:13:06] Espyo: not competitively
[18/07/2014 22:13:14] Espyo: yes, it's just a small pointless battle
[18/07/2014 22:13:16] Espyo: but that's jut it, pointless
[18/07/2014 22:13:17] jpmrocks: of course not competitively
[18/07/2014 22:13:26] jpmrocks: its like a brotherly competition
[18/07/2014 22:13:29] Espyo: plus, I think that for most of the time, the achievements don't do what they are really meant to
[18/07/2014 22:13:33] jpmrocks: we all are part of the same family
[18/07/2014 22:13:35] Espyo: they are focused on making several edits, for instance
[18/07/2014 22:13:36] jpmrocks: same purpose
[18/07/2014 22:13:41] Espyo: this does not mean constructive edits
[18/07/2014 22:13:48] Espyo: people who are hungry for achievements will edit quite often
[18/07/2014 22:13:49] jpmrocks: thats why admins are here
[18/07/2014 22:13:53] Espyo: ...whether or not they add to the topic
[18/07/2014 22:13:56] jpmrocks: we keep a iron fist on the wikia's edits
[18/07/2014 22:14:00] Espyo: they don't have to be destructive edits
[18/07/2014 22:14:04] jpmrocks: if they break rules
[18/07/2014 22:14:06] jpmrocks: away they go
[18/07/2014 22:14:08] Espyo: but they can be as petty as correcting a comma that didn't need correcting
[18/07/2014 22:14:08] jpmrocks: get a rollback
[18/07/2014 22:14:12] jpmrocks: all within about 10 minutes
[18/07/2014 22:14:16] Espyo: it just inflates a person's own ego
[18/07/2014 22:14:23] Espyo: yes, that's natural in all wikis
[18/07/2014 22:14:33] Espyo: but I mean the achievement-hungry people won't really do all that great
[18/07/2014 22:14:39] Espyo: they might not do harm, in fact, they hardly will
[18/07/2014 22:14:48] Espyo: but they will go out of their way just to get an achievement
[18/07/2014 22:15:01] jpmrocks: thats why we have our group keeping an eye out
[18/07/2014 22:15:16] jpmrocks: bringing forth problems to admins
[18/07/2014 22:15:24] jpmrocks: "Hey this guy just made 6 blog posts"
[18/07/2014 22:15:28] Espyo: but switching a comma for a dash isn't a problem
[18/07/2014 22:15:28] jpmrocks: they link it
[18/07/2014 22:15:31] jpmrocks: we check it out
[18/07/2014 22:15:35] Espyo: it's not a bad thing either
[18/07/2014 22:15:38] Espyo: but it's pointless
[18/07/2014 22:15:48] Espyo: and again, it just means that the user goes out of their way for a petty achievement
[18/07/2014 22:15:49] jpmrocks: then wheres the problem
[18/07/2014 22:15:54] jpmrocks: you don't have to do
[18/07/2014 22:15:56] Espyo: because it doesn't focus on being constructive
[18/07/2014 22:15:59] Espyo: of course you do not
[18/07/2014 22:16:01] jpmrocks: there are people who will want it
[18/07/2014 22:16:05] Espyo: but you know the achievement-hungry people always will
[18/07/2014 22:16:06] jpmrocks: some who will not
[18/07/2014 22:16:13] Espyo: there are, for instance, achievement servers on popular games
[18/07/2014 22:16:20] Espyo: just for those that can't wait and need to have them all
[18/07/2014 22:16:20] jpmrocks: i will admit in saying i am an achievement whore
[18/07/2014 22:16:29] Espyo: and it's fine
[18/07/2014 22:16:32] Espyo: but it doesn't help the wiki
[18/07/2014 22:16:33] jpmrocks: i have a goal of being #1 ranked on the wikia
[18/07/2014 22:16:39] Espyo: it doesn't hurt it either, but it doesn't help
[18/07/2014 22:16:43] jpmrocks: but thats the thing
[18/07/2014 22:16:46] jpmrocks: it does help
[18/07/2014 22:16:54] jpmrocks: idk how
[18/07/2014 22:16:54] Espyo: it can help, but it doesn't necessarily
[18/07/2014 22:17:00] jpmrocks: but it somehow doesn't disrupt anything
[18/07/2014 22:17:01] Espyo: like, 100 edits in a day
[18/07/2014 22:17:12] Espyo: nobody can make 100 constructive edits in a day, unless a lot of critical info is missing
[18/07/2014 22:17:22] jpmrocks: typos
[18/07/2014 22:17:33] jpmrocks: a good edit doesn't have to be an entire paragraph
[18/07/2014 22:17:36] Espyo: but they'd have to find 100 typos in a day
[18/07/2014 22:17:59] jpmrocks: typos
[18/07/2014 22:18:02] jpmrocks: spelling errors
[18/07/2014 22:18:06] jpmrocks: gramatical errors
[18/07/2014 22:18:08] Espyo: I know
[18/07/2014 22:18:09] jpmrocks: sentence structure
[18/07/2014 22:18:13] Espyo: but that's all so insignificant
[18/07/2014 22:18:21] Espyo: rather, not insignificant
[18/07/2014 22:18:23] jpmrocks: if it makes a difference thats positive
[18/07/2014 22:18:28] jpmrocks: we consider it a good edit
[18/07/2014 22:18:29] Espyo: it is
[18/07/2014 22:18:49] Espyo: the point I'm trying to get across, is that it looks like peple are making constructive edits not because they want to help the wiki
[18/07/2014 22:18:55] Espyo: but because they want to inflate their ego
[18/07/2014 22:19:03] Espyo: no offense, I don't know how you got most of the achievements
[18/07/2014 22:19:04] jpmrocks: if the result is helping the wiki
[18/07/2014 22:19:08] jpmrocks: then whats the problem
[18/07/2014 22:19:10] Espyo: maybe you got then righteously
[18/07/2014 22:19:28] Espyo: it focuses on the social aspect more than a person's good will
[18/07/2014 22:19:33] Espyo: the ends are right, but the means...
[18/07/2014 22:19:53] Espyo: I just don't see them being all that great
[18/07/2014 22:20:03] jpmrocks: i feel you have a negative view on how people work
[18/07/2014 22:20:15] jpmrocks: which I'm not saying is bad
[18/07/2014 22:20:18] Espyo: anybody that edits a wiki is doing it on their free will
[18/07/2014 22:20:22] jpmrocks: yeah
[18/07/2014 22:20:25] Espyo: so I couldn't agree people work negatively
[18/07/2014 22:20:40] Espyo: but I'm saying that whereas normally nobody would go bother to change that "ultra-bitter spray" to "Ultra-Bitter Spray"
[18/07/2014 22:20:43] Espyo: now they're forced to
[18/07/2014 22:20:47] Espyo: it's good, but...
[18/07/2014 22:20:52] Espyo: it seems like such a forced thing to do
[18/07/2014 22:21:00] jpmrocks: well we're not forcing them either
[18/07/2014 22:21:09] jpmrocks: they're volunteering themselves to do that
[18/07/2014 22:21:12] jpmrocks: for a reward
[18/07/2014 22:21:19] Espyo: yes
[18/07/2014 22:21:19] jpmrocks: and while doing good for a reward isn't a good aspect
[18/07/2014 22:21:20] Greenpickle: IMO, achievements aren't terrible if they encourage people to improve the wiki, as much as my first reaction to the idea is horror
[18/07/2014 22:21:39] Greenpickle: and I think we're getting bogged down in details here
[18/07/2014 22:21:40] Espyo: they're not at least called actually "achievements", are they?
[18/07/2014 22:21:41] jpmrocks: they're there to encourage wikis contribution
[18/07/2014 22:21:43] Espyo: that's such a... video game term
[18/07/2014 22:21:52] Espyo: it really starts to lose the point
[18/07/2014 22:21:56] Espyo: they're like "medals", right?
[18/07/2014 22:21:59] jpmrocks: well wikias are mainly used in the "nard" universes
[18/07/2014 22:22:02] jpmrocks: nerd
[18/07/2014 22:22:07] Espyo: that's true
[18/07/2014 22:22:15] Espyo: though there are wikias of things like water, that I checked
[18/07/2014 22:22:17] Espyo: which is pretty funny
[18/07/2014 22:22:28] jpmrocks: lol yeah
[18/07/2014 22:22:34] jpmrocks: and they're badges, not achievements
[18/07/2014 22:22:40] Espyo: oh, badges
[18/07/2014 22:22:41] Espyo: all right
[18/07/2014 22:22:46] Greenpickle: I remember when they opened up wiki creation without approval
[18/07/2014 22:22:49] Greenpickle: that was a bad day
[18/07/2014 22:22:57] Espyo: youch
[18/07/2014 22:23:05] jpmrocks: there are still a few bad wiki eggs that pop up
[18/07/2014 22:23:12] Espyo: yeah...
[18/07/2014 22:23:18] Espyo: there are a couple of other things I don't really understand
[18/07/2014 22:23:21] Espyo: like slideshows
[18/07/2014 22:23:28] Espyo: this doesn't work for a wiki environment
[18/07/2014 22:23:31] Espyo: for the most part
[18/07/2014 22:23:36] Espyo: it does work on galleries, that I admit
[18/07/2014 22:23:42] jpmrocks: there are wikias that have pulled off slideshows to work well
[18/07/2014 22:23:48] Espyo: it's a great thing for galleries, becaues you can just go back and forth
[18/07/2014 22:23:53] Espyo: I don't doubt that in the slightest
[18/07/2014 22:23:56] jpmrocks: yeah, we use them for some galleries
[18/07/2014 22:23:59] Espyo: but why are slideshows enabled everywhere?
[18/07/2014 22:24:11] Espyo: last I checked, if you click on, for instance, a texture for an area, you get a slideshow
[18/07/2014 22:24:11] jpmrocks: if i may link a page real quick
[18/07/2014 22:24:20] Espyo: ...with irrelevant images next to it
[18/07/2014 22:24:41] jpmrocks: Here we've used slideshows outside of galleries: [[Obstacles]]
[18/07/2014 22:24:49] jpmrocks: it does keep some pages more organized
[18/07/2014 22:25:01] jpmrocks: without awkward holes in the pages
[18/07/2014 22:25:10] Espyo: oh, embedded slideshows?
[18/07/2014 22:25:13] Espyo: didn't know those were a thing
[18/07/2014 22:25:16] Espyo: but I agree, that looks good
[18/07/2014 22:25:16] jpmrocks: yeah
[18/07/2014 22:25:32] Espyo: a bit small, and the buttons could be less huge, but it works wonders
[18/07/2014 22:25:39] jpmrocks: yeah
[18/07/2014 22:25:43] Espyo: the problem I was thinking of is that any picture you click links you to a slideshow
[18/07/2014 22:25:52] jpmrocks: oh that
[18/07/2014 22:25:56] Espyo: yeah
[18/07/2014 22:25:57] Greenpickle: it would be okay if they didn't autoplay
[18/07/2014 22:25:59] Espyo: that I just don't get
[18/07/2014 22:26:03] Greenpickle: as it is, they distract when you try to read
[18/07/2014 22:26:07] Espyo: oh, it does auto-play
[18/07/2014 22:26:09] Espyo: it distr-- yeah
[18/07/2014 22:26:20] Espyo: and now it's not auto-playing any more? hmm, weird
[18/07/2014 22:26:30] Espyo: I have the page on the window behind Skype, and it stopped
[18/07/2014 22:26:34] jpmrocks: we've tried to understand how the auto play works
[18/07/2014 22:26:38] jpmrocks: its weird
[18/07/2014 22:26:47] jpmrocks: i think if it goes thru all the images, it stops
[18/07/2014 22:26:51] Espyo: also, let me just say something off-topic real quick
[18/07/2014 22:26:53] Espyo: the page you linked to
[18/07/2014 22:27:00] Espyo: are those things really called "Lilly pads"?
[18/07/2014 22:27:04] Espyo: I thought those were "Lily pads"
[18/07/2014 22:27:05] Espyo: one l
[18/07/2014 22:27:08] Espyo: (heart)
[18/07/2014 22:27:12] Espyo: that's not what I said, Skype
[18/07/2014 22:27:17] Espyo: I said: ( L )
[18/07/2014 22:27:26] jpmrocks: wait, lilly pads
[18/07/2014 22:27:36] jpmrocks: see, again typos
[18/07/2014 22:27:40] Espyo: mhm
[18/07/2014 22:27:50] Espyo: they happen all the time
[18/07/2014 22:27:56] Espyo: but at least I gave a heads-up
[18/07/2014 22:28:02] jpmrocks: thanks (heart)
[18/07/2014 22:28:18] Espyo: maybe they are "lilly pads" in P3, and the editor who wrote that is right
[18/07/2014 22:28:23] Espyo: but... yeah
[18/07/2014 22:28:40] Espyo: so, can the slideshow settings be changed on a per-wiki basis?
[18/07/2014 22:28:51] Espyo: because every wiki I check has that automatic slideshow thing when you click an image
[18/07/2014 22:28:59] Espyo: and if I want the image's page, I have to click another link
[18/07/2014 22:29:03] Espyo: ...and if I want the raw image, yet another link
[18/07/2014 22:29:06] Espyo: it's really annoying
[18/07/2014 22:29:29] jpmrocks: i haven't found the big slideshows to autoplay
[18/07/2014 22:29:40] Espyo: no, those don't
[18/07/2014 22:29:44] Espyo: not that I noticed, anyway
[18/07/2014 22:29:52] Espyo: but the extra slideshow pop-up is pretty pointless
[18/07/2014 22:29:56] Espyo: specially on loose images
[18/07/2014 22:30:04] Espyo: because, again, the left/right arrows take you to irrelevant images
[18/07/2014 22:30:13] Espyo: uh, I just even imagined somebody walking into a spoiler without knowing
[18/07/2014 22:30:22] jpmrocks: true
[18/07/2014 22:30:34] Espyo: afaik, those single-image popup slideshows use the list of most recently uploaded images
[18/07/2014 22:30:39] Espyo: poor design choice on wikia's side
[18/07/2014 22:31:03] Espyo: not saying your side -- most of the tiny quirks that are bad about wikia are on the general website, and not any specific wiki
[18/07/2014 22:31:03] jpmrocks: from testing it now
[18/07/2014 22:31:15] jpmrocks: it navigates the pictures on that page first
[18/07/2014 22:31:31] jpmrocks: then recent uploads
[18/07/2014 22:32:02] Espyo: yeah, so my spoiler fear is true
[18/07/2014 22:32:04] Espyo: ouch
[18/07/2014 22:32:11] jpmrocks: which is currently just a bunch of pikmin3 sceneries
[18/07/2014 22:32:23] jpmrocks: and that's kinda a risk of wikis in general
[18/07/2014 22:32:28] Espyo: yeah
[18/07/2014 22:32:31] jpmrocks: your willing to possibly spoil yourself
[18/07/2014 22:32:34] Espyo: again, wikis in general, not yours in particular
[18/07/2014 22:32:35] jpmrocks: but thats the risk of knowledge
[18/07/2014 22:32:39] jpmrocks: yeah
[18/07/2014 22:32:39] Espyo: true
[18/07/2014 22:32:59] jpmrocks: i think we could try to look into marking images as spoilers to not show up
[18/07/2014 22:33:03] jpmrocks: i think I've seen it before
[18/07/2014 22:33:04] Espyo: spoiler tags are useful for this; I really like how the NIWA Zelda wiki handles them
[18/07/2014 22:33:13] Espyo: that'd be a good idea, yeah
[18/07/2014 22:33:30] Espyo: and by "this" I meant spoilers in general, not the slideshow spoilers
[18/07/2014 22:33:41] jpmrocks: ill need to see it real quick
[18/07/2014 22:33:50] Espyo: all right
[18/07/2014 22:35:15] jpmrocks: it is really good
[18/07/2014 22:35:23] jpmrocks: i know we have templates like that
[18/07/2014 22:35:29] jpmrocks: we just haven't used them recently
[18/07/2014 22:35:35] jpmrocks: we are planning to boring them back
[18/07/2014 22:35:39] jpmrocks: bring*
[18/07/2014 22:35:55] Espyo: if they're the leftovers from when we were there, then they're just lines that say "Spoilers begin here" or something of the like
[18/07/2014 22:35:58] Espyo: we still have those on Pikipedia, too
[18/07/2014 22:36:51] jpmrocks: i think we have a drop down spoiler thingy too
[18/07/2014 22:36:59] Espyo: oh, neat
[18/07/2014 22:37:20] jpmrocks: it seems to be quite old
[18/07/2014 22:37:26] jpmrocks: we should really use it again
[18/07/2014 22:37:40] jpmrocks: [[Captain_Olimar]] this poage uses them near the bottom
[18/07/2014 22:37:57] jpmrocks: although, one of them is broken
[18/07/2014 22:38:05] jpmrocks: the one for "pikmin 3" works well
[18/07/2014 22:38:37] Espyo: yeah, I see it
[18/07/2014 22:38:51] Espyo: the one on the search for Louie is broken though
[18/07/2014 22:38:56] Espyo: that's easy to fix, however
[18/07/2014 22:38:58] jpmrocks: yeah
[18/07/2014 22:39:09] jpmrocks: I'm not a java expert though, Sneaky Spy is
[18/07/2014 22:39:17] jpmrocks: ill mention it to him about it
[18/07/2014 22:39:20] Espyo: I don't think the problem there is java
[18/07/2014 22:39:28] Espyo: (javascript, actually, they're pretty different)
[18/07/2014 22:39:34] Espyo: I see a lonesome |}
[18/07/2014 22:39:42] Espyo: so I'm guessing that that's a problem with the wikitext on the template
[18/07/2014 22:40:03] jpmrocks: let me look at it
[18/07/2014 22:41:34] Espyo: another thing I don't really like on the new wikia layout, the proportions of the edit page's elements
[18/07/2014 22:41:43] Espyo: at least on the carmageddon wikia this is the case
[18/07/2014 22:41:46] Espyo: let me check Pikmin wikia
[18/07/2014 22:41:55] jpmrocks: edit proportions?
[18/07/2014 22:42:16] Espyo: between the edit box, comment box, and uh... category box, was it?
[18/07/2014 22:42:24] jpmrocks: let me look
[18/07/2014 22:42:42] Espyo: ah, it's not as bad as it was
[18/07/2014 22:42:47] Espyo: or maybe it's just not as bad here
[18/07/2014 22:42:55] Espyo: the edit summary is nice here
[18/07/2014 22:43:01] jpmrocks: yes
[18/07/2014 22:43:01] Espyo: just the size it should be, really
[18/07/2014 22:43:04] Espyo: let me check Carma
[18/07/2014 22:43:10] jpmrocks: it may have changed since you last saw it
[18/07/2014 22:43:15] Espyo: yeah
[18/07/2014 22:43:17] Espyo: ...great
[18/07/2014 22:43:22] Espyo: see, another thing I hate
[18/07/2014 22:43:30] Espyo: you can't search for "Special:Random"
[18/07/2014 22:43:38] Espyo: I do that all the time when I need a random page on a off-wikia wiki
[18/07/2014 22:43:51] Espyo: and it takes you to the Special:Random page, which in turn, takes you to a random page
[18/07/2014 22:43:53] Espyo: but you can't do that here
[18/07/2014 22:44:00] Espyo: I use the search feature on Firefox, top-right corner
[18/07/2014 22:44:03] jpmrocks: there is the "random page" button at the top that functions the same
[18/07/2014 22:44:04] Espyo: that's why it's so convenient
[18/07/2014 22:44:08] Espyo: yeah, there is
[18/07/2014 22:44:14] Espyo: but I could go there directly from the search box
[18/07/2014 22:44:26] Espyo: if not, I'd have to go through my bookmarks, grab the Carma wiki, and then click the link
[18/07/2014 22:44:43] Espyo: oh yeah, ugh
[18/07/2014 22:44:44] jpmrocks: although, there probably is a redirectory page i can figure out to get it to work
[18/07/2014 22:44:47] Espyo: it's a Carmageddon wiki thing
[18/07/2014 22:44:51] jpmrocks: ew
[18/07/2014 22:44:58] Espyo: it's not just Special:Random, mind
[18/07/2014 22:45:05] Espyo: Special:SpecialPages doesn't work either
[18/07/2014 22:45:08] Espyo: but if you put it on the URL, it works
[18/07/2014 22:45:10] Espyo: so I know the page exists
[18/07/2014 22:45:14] Espyo: it's just missing from search results
[18/07/2014 22:45:18] jpmrocks: that i know is a big difference between wiki and wikia
[18/07/2014 22:45:18] Espyo: for some reason I can't tell
[18/07/2014 22:45:36] jpmrocks: wikis i think have a system that auto makes redirectories
[18/07/2014 22:45:41] jpmrocks: wikias you have to make them
[18/07/2014 22:46:09] Espyo: sucks
[18/07/2014 22:46:24] jpmrocks: yeah
[18/07/2014 22:46:30] jpmrocks: i will agree that is a pain in the arse
[18/07/2014 22:46:30] Espyo: this is how it is on Carmageddon wikia https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47921869/Edit.png
[18/07/2014 22:46:35] Espyo: the top-right corner is the summary box
[18/07/2014 22:46:42] jpmrocks: ew
[18/07/2014 22:46:44] Espyo: it's just ridiculously huge
[18/07/2014 22:46:54] jpmrocks: "i just wanna say comma, not right a memoir
[18/07/2014 22:46:59] jpmrocks: write*
[18/07/2014 22:47:03] Espyo: ikr
[18/07/2014 22:47:14] Espyo: nobody edited the wiki's style since the layout change happened
[18/07/2014 22:47:19] Espyo: so I'm guessing this is the default box size
[18/07/2014 22:47:33] jpmrocks: hmmm
[18/07/2014 22:47:47] jpmrocks: i know a few wikias use the same size that pikmin wiki uses
[18/07/2014 22:48:06] Espyo: never really edited more than Carmageddon wikia, so I couldn't tell
[18/07/2014 22:48:11] jpmrocks: oh
[18/07/2014 22:48:14] Espyo: and the Pikmin wiki's size is the right one
[18/07/2014 22:48:25] Espyo: so it really makes me think why they chose that as the default size
[18/07/2014 22:48:53] jpmrocks: idk
[18/07/2014 22:49:03] Espyo: I get pointless notifications sometimes when entering a wiki
[18/07/2014 22:49:13] Espyo: either they're notifications about some community member I couldn't care less
[18/07/2014 22:49:13] jpmrocks: the little pop-up in the bottom right
[18/07/2014 22:49:17] Espyo: or about some event on the current wiki
[18/07/2014 22:49:20] Espyo: yeah, bottom right
[18/07/2014 22:49:24] jpmrocks: oh yeah
[18/07/2014 22:49:27] Espyo: it's really annoying
[18/07/2014 22:49:27] jpmrocks: that can get annoying
[18/07/2014 22:49:33] Espyo: I don't suppose those can be disabled per-wiki
[18/07/2014 22:49:39] Espyo: as they want ads to other of their wikis
[18/07/2014 22:49:45] Espyo: but for people who aren't interested, it's just trash
[18/07/2014 22:49:53] Espyo: worse still was when uh...
[18/07/2014 22:49:58] Espyo: I think I went on a Star Wars wiki
[18/07/2014 22:49:59] jpmrocks: at least on pikmin wiki, we only get notifications of a wikis hosted contest
[18/07/2014 22:50:05] Espyo: and I know nothing about Star Wars
[18/07/2014 22:50:05] jpmrocks: or when we change the community messages
[18/07/2014 22:50:16] Espyo: and the second I enter, I instantly get a notification about some crazy Star-Wars thing
[18/07/2014 22:50:20] Espyo: I couldn't help but go "what"
[18/07/2014 22:50:28] Espyo: those kinds of notifications you said are good
[18/07/2014 22:50:32] Espyo: but the rest are really clutter
[18/07/2014 22:51:32] Espyo: another thing, on the top-right, there's a box where you can check your settings and such
[18/07/2014 22:51:35] Espyo: like in any wiki
[18/07/2014 22:51:45] Espyo: but this is a box, and it takes a second to load
[18/07/2014 22:52:08] Espyo: more often than not, I put my cursor there, realize nothing happens, and assume I have to click there to make the box open
[18/07/2014 22:52:12] Espyo: you know, the down-pointing triangle
[18/07/2014 22:52:29] Espyo: and when I do that, it opens my user page
[18/07/2014 22:52:32] Espyo: it's really jarring
[18/07/2014 22:52:34] jpmrocks: for me its near instaneous
[18/07/2014 22:52:38] Espyo: if only the box was instantaneous
[18/07/2014 22:52:41] Espyo: it never is for me
[18/07/2014 22:52:49] Espyo: and it's not a PC problem, this isn't a bad laptop at all
[18/07/2014 22:53:05] jpmrocks: it could be with server connection
[18/07/2014 22:53:18] Espyo: or at least they could make it so that clicking the arrow opens it
[18/07/2014 22:53:20] Espyo: or doesn't
[18/07/2014 22:53:29] Espyo: but for some reason, clicking the arrow itself brings the user page
[18/07/2014 22:53:39] Espyo: please try it, so I can confirm I don't just have a lazy eye
[18/07/2014 22:53:52] jpmrocks: clicking it takes you to the user page
[18/07/2014 22:53:56] Espyo: on the actual arrow itself
[18/07/2014 22:53:57] Espyo: right
[18/07/2014 22:53:58] Espyo: it's weird
[18/07/2014 22:54:14] Espyo: it's tiny details like these that make me think about the design choices
[18/07/2014 22:54:23] jpmrocks: well, in the drop down menu, the user page is first
[18/07/2014 22:54:32] Espyo: regardless of any wiki's content, the design choices are global
[18/07/2014 22:54:39] Espyo: yes, but the arrow shouldn't go to it
[18/07/2014 22:54:45] Espyo: the name, sure, but not the arrow
[18/07/2014 22:55:03] Espyo: and the first is not the user page, it's the... mural?
[18/07/2014 22:55:06] Espyo: what's a mural?
[18/07/2014 22:55:10] jpmrocks: message wall
[18/07/2014 22:55:12] Espyo: wait, is this the talk page?
[18/07/2014 22:55:22] jpmrocks: it was
[18/07/2014 22:55:26] Espyo: what changed?
[18/07/2014 22:55:37] jpmrocks: we decided to change it to a chat page
[18/07/2014 22:55:47] jpmrocks: which is a choice per wikis, not a global law
[18/07/2014 22:55:54] Espyo: are the chats recorded?
[18/07/2014 22:56:05] jpmrocks: what do you mean recorded
[18/07/2014 22:56:10] Espyo: like, on a talk page
[18/07/2014 22:56:11] jpmrocks: like the old original ones
[18/07/2014 22:56:14] Espyo: whatever you write gets recorded
[18/07/2014 22:56:17] Espyo: yeah
[18/07/2014 22:56:36] jpmrocks: i think you'd have to use a link
[18/07/2014 22:56:43] jpmrocks: but it should be still saved
[18/07/2014 22:57:03] Espyo: kind of pointles, imo
[18/07/2014 22:57:33] jpmrocks: the old version required to add in a title for the conversation, which, we had agreed, can get confusing
[18/07/2014 22:57:45] jpmrocks: we feel that this newer one is more navigatable
[18/07/2014 22:57:50] Espyo: it required?
[18/07/2014 22:57:54] jpmrocks: with it being easier to respond
[18/07/2014 22:57:55] Espyo: that's weird
[18/07/2014 22:58:01] Espyo: I never saw it being required, anywhere
[18/07/2014 22:58:09] Espyo: I can agree with the replying being easier, instead of using ::::::::
[18/07/2014 22:58:10] jpmrocks: we chose it as a wiki decision if it would be a good thing
[18/07/2014 22:58:13] Espyo: but the title was never mandatory
[18/07/2014 22:58:22] Espyo: is the title mandatory on wikia?
[18/07/2014 22:58:27] jpmrocks: the title made it easier to search and reply to
[18/07/2014 22:58:32] jpmrocks: no
[18/07/2014 22:58:37] Espyo: but it's just a simple section
[18/07/2014 22:58:37] jpmrocks: nitle shouldn't be at least
[18/07/2014 22:59:02] jpmrocks: okay... looks like title is required
[18/07/2014 22:59:10] Espyo: ...
[18/07/2014 22:59:20] Espyo: what about article talk pages?
[18/07/2014 22:59:31] jpmrocks: we changed those to comments
[18/07/2014 22:59:38] Espyo: hmm
[18/07/2014 22:59:42] Espyo: do they work well?
[18/07/2014 22:59:56] jpmrocks: yeah, as far as we have found
[18/07/2014 23:00:31] jpmrocks: they're at the very bottom of the page, for those not interested in them
[18/07/2014 23:00:50] Espyo: oh yeah, those things
[18/07/2014 23:00:57] Espyo: they seem so tacked on
[18/07/2014 23:01:03] Espyo: and if they're long, they get troublesome
[18/07/2014 23:01:12] Espyo: I can see it working fine for short conversations, but...
[18/07/2014 23:01:12] jpmrocks: troublesome how?
[18/07/2014 23:01:32] Espyo: it can make the page longer, which can be a strain on some browsers
[18/07/2014 23:01:41] Espyo: well, less browsers, and more systems
[18/07/2014 23:01:46] Espyo: like reading it on a 3DS' browser
[18/07/2014 23:01:56] jpmrocks: comments will not extend until you scroll to the very bottom of the page
[18/07/2014 23:02:28] jpmrocks: so, the scroll bar has to reach the very bottom
[18/07/2014 23:02:35] jpmrocks: for them to appear
[18/07/2014 23:02:40] Espyo: but if you do scroll, it reaches the same condition
[18/07/2014 23:02:52] jpmrocks: condition?
[18/07/2014 23:02:59] Espyo: I mean, being a strain
[18/07/2014 23:03:07] Espyo: while you're reading, they won't hurt the browser
[18/07/2014 23:03:18] Espyo: but when you reach the bottom to read the conversation, things could start to lag
[18/07/2014 23:03:32] Espyo: should be fine for small pages, though
[18/07/2014 23:04:03] jpmrocks: yeah, even then we usually don't really use the comments for discussing edits on the pages
[18/07/2014 23:04:11] jpmrocks: if we use them at all
[18/07/2014 23:04:21] Espyo: then what are the comments for?
[18/07/2014 23:04:25] jpmrocks: we can
[18/07/2014 23:04:49] jpmrocks: we (the people who edit the wiki regularly) usually perform the edit, then ask about opinions on it, what should be changed
[18/07/2014 23:05:01] Espyo: but where do you ask? Skype group?
[18/07/2014 23:05:30] jpmrocks: either that or they post it to a currently active editor's page
[18/07/2014 23:05:44] Espyo: hm, all right
[18/07/2014 23:05:56] Espyo: though other wikis mightn't do that, so it could still reach the problem of huge comments
[18/07/2014 23:05:58] jpmrocks: and if they aren't sure, they tell an admin in skype
[18/07/2014 23:06:17] jpmrocks: i think the most comments on a page is the water wraith with 9
[18/07/2014 23:06:24] jpmrocks: and it isn't too much of a problem
[18/07/2014 23:06:37] Espyo: no, from what I saw
[18/07/2014 23:06:40] Espyo: but I meant other wikis
[18/07/2014 23:06:44] jpmrocks: oh true
[18/07/2014 23:06:45] Espyo: with maybe 50+ comments
[18/07/2014 23:06:52] Espyo: would be interesting to know
[18/07/2014 23:07:10] jpmrocks: i thin it caps at 10 comments, then a "next 10" is added
[18/07/2014 23:07:20] jpmrocks: you click it, and the next 10 comments are switched in
[18/07/2014 23:07:27] Espyo: oh, that's a good thing, then
[18/07/2014 23:07:41] Espyo: still not quite sure which I'd prefer -- a talk page, or that
[18/07/2014 23:07:45] Espyo: they have their pros and cons
[18/07/2014 23:07:48] jpmrocks: we did a trial period
[18/07/2014 23:07:56] Espyo: like, these load whether you want them or not; if you reach the end of the page
[18/07/2014 23:08:00] jpmrocks: and more users on our wiki at least liked comments
[18/07/2014 23:08:06] Espyo: fair enough
[18/07/2014 23:08:11] jpmrocks: thats another thing
[18/07/2014 23:08:24] Espyo: the boxes could at least not be so huge
[18/07/2014 23:08:28] jpmrocks: we usually do trials for optional stiff
[18/07/2014 23:08:31] jpmrocks: stuff
[18/07/2014 23:08:34] Espyo: only 5~ comments fit on-screen at once
[18/07/2014 23:08:36] Espyo: right
[18/07/2014 23:08:54] jpmrocks: i don't know for sure
[18/07/2014 23:08:59] jpmrocks: I'm thinking 10 comments
[18/07/2014 23:09:06] jpmrocks: we've never reached the cap
[18/07/2014 23:09:16] Espyo: right
[18/07/2014 23:10:18] jpmrocks: it isn't too intrusive
[18/07/2014 23:10:38] Espyo: no, never said it was
[18/07/2014 23:10:43] Espyo: it's not in the middle of anything
[18/07/2014 23:10:51] Espyo: but it does take a bit of scrolling to read everything
[18/07/2014 23:10:59] Espyo: having some padding is good, so everything's not cluttered
[18/07/2014 23:11:05] Espyo: but these have too much
[18/07/2014 23:11:14] Espyo: maybe the .css file can be edited to reduce the padding on them a bit
[18/07/2014 23:11:15] Espyo: just my 2 cents
[18/07/2014 23:11:29] jpmrocks: And I think with the "Darwin" update this past christmas, the scrolling is now effected by how wide the browser window is
[18/07/2014 23:11:46] jpmrocks: i think
[18/07/2014 23:11:48] Espyo: but that's just it, it never was the case for me
[18/07/2014 23:11:51] jpmrocks: like, 85% sure
[18/07/2014 23:11:53] Espyo: actually, let me resize the window
[18/07/2014 23:12:09] Espyo: well, stuff changes size, that's for sure
[18/07/2014 23:12:18] Espyo: but it has a width cap
[18/07/2014 23:12:20] Espyo: a small one, at that
[18/07/2014 23:12:41] jpmrocks: if you make it small enough, the side bar stuff gets added beneath the comments
[18/07/2014 23:12:49] Espyo: I noticed
[18/07/2014 23:13:02] Espyo: but if the window is maximized, as it aways is, some space goes unused
[18/07/2014 23:13:15] jpmrocks: yeah
[18/07/2014 23:14:02] Espyo: when the split happened, the wikia was meant to be abanoned
[18/07/2014 23:14:05] Espyo: we had plans for everything
[18/07/2014 23:14:10] Espyo: but we didn't account for one thing
[18/07/2014 23:14:18] Espyo: it would've been the highest ranked link on google
[18/07/2014 23:14:26] jpmrocks: yeah
[18/07/2014 23:14:31] Espyo: if you google "wiki pikmin", that one is the first one
[18/07/2014 23:14:38] jpmrocks: ours?
[18/07/2014 23:14:41] Espyo: yeah
[18/07/2014 23:14:54] jpmrocks: i did some research
[18/07/2014 23:15:08] jpmrocks: and found we get about 200k individual views a month
[18/07/2014 23:15:15] Espyo: insane
[18/07/2014 23:15:17] jpmrocks: and you guys get about 400ish a month
[18/07/2014 23:15:25] Espyo: right
[18/07/2014 23:15:31] jpmrocks: and thats the thing
[18/07/2014 23:15:41] jpmrocks: we keep pestering you guys to come back to us
[18/07/2014 23:15:49] jpmrocks: because you guys work hard
[18/07/2014 23:15:50] Espyo: you don't "keep" doing it
[18/07/2014 23:15:55] jpmrocks: we occasionally
[18/07/2014 23:16:00] Espyo: this is the first we've heard of anybody from pikmin wikia in over 4 years
[18/07/2014 23:16:05] jpmrocks: really...
[18/07/2014 23:16:08] Greenpickle: same
[18/07/2014 23:16:12] jpmrocks: i thought we've sent messages more
[18/07/2014 23:16:15] jpmrocks: hmmm
[18/07/2014 23:16:19] jpmrocks: anywhosen
[18/07/2014 23:16:22] Espyo: nope
[18/07/2014 23:16:30] jpmrocks: we want you guys to come back
[18/07/2014 23:16:34] jpmrocks: because are brilliant
[18/07/2014 23:16:41] Espyo: we didn't want to split
[18/07/2014 23:16:42] jpmrocks: and work well with javascript
[18/07/2014 23:16:51] Espyo: we never wanted this separation to happen
[18/07/2014 23:16:57] Espyo: not a single one of us ever did
[18/07/2014 23:17:10] Espyo: but we had to, because at the time, wikia was not the reliable place to stay in
[18/07/2014 23:17:16] Espyo: they couldn't live up to the people's demands
[18/07/2014 23:17:20] Espyo: so we, like a lot of wikis, left
[18/07/2014 23:17:26] Espyo: we weren't the only ones
[18/07/2014 23:17:26] jpmrocks: would you all be willing to come back if you gave it chance?
[18/07/2014 23:17:33] jpmrocks: like a 30 day trial period with us
[18/07/2014 23:17:42] Espyo: if we were, you could chalk us up as being crazy or consipracy theorists, but we never
[18/07/2014 23:17:59] jpmrocks: you'd be surprised that crazy theorists work on our wiki lol
[18/07/2014 23:18:10] jpmrocks: like a good 50% of super active
[18/07/2014 23:18:10] Espyo: those can always receive a slap on the face
[18/07/2014 23:18:10] shadowraptor101: Yeh, I remember when Wikia went to shit. Anways sorry about not being here. My friend just went through a bad breakup so we cuddled for about 4 hours and now my arm is asleep.
[18/07/2014 23:18:14] shadowraptor101: anyways Hi
[18/07/2014 23:18:19] Espyo: it's fine
[18/07/2014 23:18:20] Espyo: hi
[18/07/2014 23:18:27] shadowraptor101: I'm ShadowRaptor101
[18/07/2014 23:18:37] Espyo: Espyo here
[18/07/2014 23:18:44] Espyo: I speak personally when I say that I check your wiki occasionally
[18/07/2014 23:18:56] Espyo: and I get a strong feeling of... well, that professionalism isn't the aim
[18/07/2014 23:18:59] Espyo: I don't mean this in an offensive way
[18/07/2014 23:19:04] jpmrocks: no i understand
[18/07/2014 23:19:05] Espyo: but every time I look at a page, something's always wrong
[18/07/2014 23:19:08] jpmrocks: we tried professional
[18/07/2014 23:19:10] jpmrocks: and it works sometimes
[18/07/2014 23:19:12] Espyo: like, lack of quality control
[18/07/2014 23:19:14] jpmrocks: but we also gotta have a fun
[18/07/2014 23:19:18] jpmrocks: now that
[18/07/2014 23:19:22] jpmrocks: we try our hardest
[18/07/2014 23:19:25] Espyo: no doubt
[18/07/2014 23:19:33] Espyo: I could never deny it
[18/07/2014 23:19:36] Espyo: but it's not being enough
[18/07/2014 23:19:48] Espyo: I can say that when I need to go check a page there, 3 times out of 4, there's something wrong
[18/07/2014 23:19:54] jpmrocks: well yeah
[18/07/2014 23:19:54] Espyo: this can go from a petty typo, to a hugely broken thing
[18/07/2014 23:19:56] jpmrocks: we're only human
[18/07/2014 23:19:59] Espyo: true
[18/07/2014 23:20:02] shadowraptor101: It's often because only a handful of us, paritcularly the admins, even do good editing. Most of it is done by noobs and unregistered users
[18/07/2014 23:20:02] jpmrocks: and compared to how it used to be
[18/07/2014 23:20:09] Espyo: let me tell you a big one: Area infoboxes have a red link to "hazards"
[18/07/2014 23:20:10] shadowraptor101: just look at our blogs... they're nightmares
[18/07/2014 23:20:12] Espyo: at least, the last time I checked
[18/07/2014 23:20:18] jpmrocks: we're working on that currently
[18/07/2014 23:20:25] Espyo: just change the link, in this case
[18/07/2014 23:20:29] jpmrocks: Since Sneaky Spy is sour java man
[18/07/2014 23:20:31] Espyo: and yeah, it's an universal constant
[18/07/2014 23:20:41] jpmrocks: i think he had fixed it
[18/07/2014 23:20:46] Espyo: most noobs go on wikias to edit
[18/07/2014 23:20:50] Espyo: there's just some weird attraction
[18/07/2014 23:20:54] Espyo: loads of great editors do as well
[18/07/2014 23:20:56] Espyo: but noobs do to
[18/07/2014 23:21:11] Espyo: and it's weird, in independent wikis, that's not so much the case
[18/07/2014 23:21:14] jpmrocks: its easier to know than full javasrcipt
[18/07/2014 23:21:18] Espyo: quality control, is hence, important
[18/07/2014 23:21:29] jpmrocks: in that case of quality control
[18/07/2014 23:21:30] Espyo: templates don't require javascript, though
[18/07/2014 23:21:35] jpmrocks: we do have the firmest grip we can get
[18/07/2014 23:22:09] Espyo: no doubt
[18/07/2014 23:22:12] shadowraptor101: yeh, that's partially my fault. I went on this kick last summer where I tried to crack down on stubs by combining pages that covered some type of static threat with the Hazards to make "Obstacles". The page looks nice, but there are still a lot of unedited links to the no-longer-existant "Hazard" article out in the wild.
[18/07/2014 23:22:25] Espyo: but even when there is quality control, it doesn't always aim for professionalism
[18/07/2014 23:22:30] Espyo: like... choice of words, for instance
[18/07/2014 23:22:31] jpmrocks: me and a few others have been working on fixing the links
[18/07/2014 23:22:43] jpmrocks: we actually have one guy working on that
[18/07/2014 23:22:48] Espyo: it can get out of hand very quickly
[18/07/2014 23:22:51] jpmrocks: its been brought up by a few users too
[18/07/2014 23:23:06] Espyo: if you've been stalking me, you'll notice that after I create pages like [[Controls]], I go around adding links
[18/07/2014 23:23:10] Espyo: instead of leaving it up for later
[18/07/2014 23:23:22] Espyo: but yeah, choice of words, and sometimes organization
[18/07/2014 23:23:33] Espyo: I think the most obvious example is right in our faces all the time: the cursor
[18/07/2014 23:23:37] jpmrocks: which is another reason we hope you guys will come back
[18/07/2014 23:23:38] Espyo: I won't beat around the bush, it's ugly
[18/07/2014 23:23:43] jpmrocks: ya'll notice things easily that we cant
[18/07/2014 23:23:45] Espyo: I'm sorry I insulted anybody, but it is
[18/07/2014 23:23:57] jpmrocks: i mean we can only fight half the battle
[18/07/2014 23:24:00] Espyo: it's a quick sketch in ms paint, not to mention it's not needed
[18/07/2014 23:24:07] Espyo: have you noticed the top bar on Pikipedia?
[18/07/2014 23:24:11] Espyo: we need Pikmin 3 help
[18/07/2014 23:24:16] Espyo: our editors are short, but dedicated
[18/07/2014 23:24:20] Espyo: but none of us have Pikmin 3
[18/07/2014 23:24:24] shadowraptor101: Yeah, we noticed
[18/07/2014 23:24:31] Espyo: where we lack in Pikmin 3 info, you excel in it
[18/07/2014 23:24:36] Espyo: and where you lack in professionalism, we have it
[18/07/2014 23:24:44] Espyo: this split up is cancer that's breaking the comunity apart
[18/07/2014 23:24:53] jpmrocks: we need to merge together again
[18/07/2014 23:25:00] Espyo: right now, an encyclopedia of Pikmin content should've reached WAY above "great" status
[18/07/2014 23:25:02] jpmrocks: we're only skilled in such things
[18/07/2014 23:25:04] Espyo: but it never came to be
[18/07/2014 23:25:16] Espyo: right, I've been editing wikis for years now
[18/07/2014 23:25:25] Espyo: and I'm a professional in computer-related things
[18/07/2014 23:25:32] shadowraptor101: It truly is. It's bad enough that Pikmin 3 split the fandom once, and now it's splitting the editors of wikis as well?
[18/07/2014 23:25:33] Espyo: I even applied for a job yesterday, coincidentally enough
[18/07/2014 23:25:39] Espyo: unemployed, but if I get the job, I'm going as a programmer
[18/07/2014 23:25:45] Espyo: so I can really work my way around a professional wiki
[18/07/2014 23:25:49] shadowraptor101: I've applied for 7 jobs this summer and have been turned down for each.
[18/07/2014 23:25:54] Espyo: how did Pikmin 3 split the fandom once?
[18/07/2014 23:26:00] Espyo: ouch, that sucks
[18/07/2014 23:26:10] Espyo: but with the global crisis, it's a bit to be expected
[18/07/2014 23:26:21] Espyo: I still don't have Pikmin 3 (duh), so I don't know which break up you mean
[18/07/2014 23:26:42] jpmrocks: well, we're more active with the pikmin fanbase
[18/07/2014 23:26:54] shadowraptor101: Because now there are A: The veterans, and B: The noobs who have only played the 3rd game and were probably born some time after the first game even hit shelves
[18/07/2014 23:27:05] jpmrocks: Ymmot, Dazz Reviews, and Dave all are decently big in the pikmin fandom
[18/07/2014 23:27:22] shadowraptor101: and on top of that, Pikmin 3 was, while good, not a game worth 9 years of waiting
[18/07/2014 23:27:23] jpmrocks: Mantis Fans is huge on miiverse (nintendo's playstation network)
[18/07/2014 23:27:38] Espyo: from what I know, yeah Pikmin 3 was overhyped
[18/07/2014 23:27:48] shadowraptor101: yeah, we try to get the big faces in to encourage more peopl;e to help us
[18/07/2014 23:27:51] Espyo: lots of tiny things went wrong -- Blue Pikmin can't salvage drowning Pikmin any more, wtf
[18/07/2014 23:28:04] shadowraptor101: but all it ended up doing was bringing in...well, yeh
[18/07/2014 23:28:23] shadowraptor101: actually the hilarious part is that Blue Pikmin are actually entirely optional now
[18/07/2014 23:28:32] Espyo: wow
[18/07/2014 23:28:41] shadowraptor101: you literally DO NOT even need to activate their Onion to complete Story Mode
[18/07/2014 23:28:44] jpmrocks: yeah, a few of our guys figured out how to break Pikmin 3
[18/07/2014 23:28:56] jpmrocks: you can beat pikmin 3 by collection only one fruit
[18/07/2014 23:28:58] jpmrocks: the watermelon
[18/07/2014 23:28:59] Espyo: a few of "our" guys did too, if you can put it like that
[18/07/2014 23:29:00] Espyo: like Miles
[18/07/2014 23:29:05] Espyo: wah, that's insane
[18/07/2014 23:29:14] Espyo: I'll definitely want to learn more after I get the game
[18/07/2014 23:29:23] Espyo: but until then... well, please refrain from spoilers
[18/07/2014 23:29:32] jpmrocks: of course
[18/07/2014 23:29:36] shadowraptor101: I'll try.
[18/07/2014 23:29:43] Espyo: it's fine so far
[18/07/2014 23:29:54] Espyo: but yeah, this isn't like an Emergence Cave run, is it?
[18/07/2014 23:30:25] jpmrocks: it can be
[18/07/2014 23:30:27] jpmrocks: its a challenge
[18/07/2014 23:30:30] Espyo: hmm
[18/07/2014 23:30:37] Espyo: but it's not like a half-intended thing, is it?
[18/07/2014 23:30:41] Espyo: an Emergence Cave run is half-intended
[18/07/2014 23:30:45] jpmrocks: probably not
[18/07/2014 23:30:51] Espyo: they did nothing to prevent it, but they never thought people would be insane enough to try it
[18/07/2014 23:30:54] Espyo: so it exploits glitches?
[18/07/2014 23:30:57] jpmrocks: it can be paired with a 7-day run of pikmin 3
[18/07/2014 23:31:04] jpmrocks: its not a glitch
[18/07/2014 23:31:06] jpmrocks: well maybe
[18/07/2014 23:31:25] shadowraptor101: I've basically mastered all speedrun methods of Pikmin 3
[18/07/2014 23:31:28] shadowraptor101: 7 days
[18/07/2014 23:31:30] shadowraptor101: 10 days
[18/07/2014 23:31:32] shadowraptor101: 1 fruit
[18/07/2014 23:31:32] shadowraptor101: ect
[18/07/2014 23:31:33] Espyo: awesome
[18/07/2014 23:31:41] Espyo: IIRC, I think I might've seen you on youtube
[18/07/2014 23:31:47] Espyo: and
[18/07/2014 23:31:54] jpmrocks: we have a youtube channel
[18/07/2014 23:31:56] Espyo: wait, I think I even saw one of ymmot's videos today
[18/07/2014 23:32:01] Espyo: but I meant your channel, not the wiki's
[18/07/2014 23:32:02] jpmrocks: but not any speedruns
[18/07/2014 23:32:05] jpmrocks: posted at least
[18/07/2014 23:32:15] jpmrocks: i have nothing on my personal channel
[18/07/2014 23:32:29] Espyo: I did, I saw that ymmot actually uploaded some videos today
[18/07/2014 23:32:29] jpmrocks: Shadowraptor hasn't really posted anything in like 5 years
[18/07/2014 23:32:32] Espyo: I'm subscribed
[18/07/2014 23:32:33] jpmrocks: Ymmot does
[18/07/2014 23:32:44] jpmrocks: We also have a few guys who do theories
[18/07/2014 23:32:48] Espyo: hmm
[18/07/2014 23:32:53] jpmrocks: on explaining some stuff
[18/07/2014 23:33:03] Espyo: I'm currently working on breaking apart Pikmin 2, and I was thinking of posting misc. videos
[18/07/2014 23:33:09] Espyo: but I never found anything that's greatly worthy
[18/07/2014 23:33:23] jpmrocks: we just cracked it open too
[18/07/2014 23:33:28] Espyo: but I mean in the game's files
[18/07/2014 23:33:29] jpmrocks: Ymmot is extracting sound
[18/07/2014 23:33:35] Espyo: I've got it extracted already
[18/07/2014 23:33:46] jpmrocks: I think Dave, one of our guys, has it mostly figured out
[18/07/2014 23:33:54] Espyo: what about caves and the like?
[18/07/2014 23:34:01] Espyo: we've been adding that kind of info to Pikipedia
[18/07/2014 23:34:05] jpmrocks: he has Dev copies from like the betas in 03
[18/07/2014 23:34:15] Espyo: one of my most recent sprees was to add enemy technical data to pages
[18/07/2014 23:34:40] jpmrocks: like health and damage
[18/07/2014 23:34:44] Espyo: and more
[18/07/2014 23:34:47] Espyo: Purple stun chance
[18/07/2014 23:34:55] jpmrocks: oh my
[18/07/2014 23:34:57] Espyo: and WAY too many properties I can't figure out
[18/07/2014 23:35:05] jpmrocks: lol
[18/07/2014 23:35:14] Espyo: White Pikmin poison damage, how long an Iridescent Flint Beetle stands around for before running
[18/07/2014 23:35:17] jpmrocks: i think we have health, but maybe not stun chance
[18/07/2014 23:35:17] Espyo: it's really a lot
[18/07/2014 23:35:30] Espyo: it's so much, that it's impossible to place in infoboxes
[18/07/2014 23:35:39] jpmrocks: yeah
[18/07/2014 23:35:41] Espyo: and all of this information could've been combined, nobody would have to go around re-exploring content
[18/07/2014 23:35:43] jpmrocks: maybe a separate chart
[18/07/2014 23:35:45] Espyo: are you guys familiar with tcrf?
[18/07/2014 23:35:50] Espyo: ...why am I asking this, of course you are
[18/07/2014 23:35:57] jpmrocks: thats where we got our teachings
[18/07/2014 23:36:05] Espyo: I'm not going to beat around the bush on this one: your "beta element" articles are straight-down copy-pasted
[18/07/2014 23:36:09] jpmrocks: at least, those of us who can do it
[18/07/2014 23:36:12] Espyo: that's a bit shameful, I have to say...
[18/07/2014 23:36:15] jpmrocks: yeah
[18/07/2014 23:36:16] Espyo: you could've at least reworded it
[18/07/2014 23:36:19] jpmrocks: we did chat
[18/07/2014 23:36:25] jpmrocks: and gave credit
[18/07/2014 23:36:29] jpmrocks: or we should have given credit
[18/07/2014 23:36:41] Espyo: but if at the end, the information was meant to be duplicated
[18/07/2014 23:36:46] Espyo: you could as well just leave a link to the TCRF pages
[18/07/2014 23:36:50] Espyo: it's what we do
[18/07/2014 23:37:01] Espyo: we just skim over some things, and leave a link to the TCRF pages for the main content
[18/07/2014 23:37:06] Espyo: there is no point in duplicating data
[18/07/2014 23:37:21] Espyo: if TCRF is a wiki that dedicates on unused content, might as well let the information's home be there
[18/07/2014 23:37:32] jpmrocks: true
[18/07/2014 23:37:35] Espyo: copying from TCRF to a Pikmin wiki is like copying from a Pikmin wiki to Wikipedia
[18/07/2014 23:37:48] Espyo: einstein, one of the admins there got really pissed off at your copy-paste
[18/07/2014 23:37:58] jpmrocks: really?
[18/07/2014 23:38:06] jpmrocks: shiza
[18/07/2014 23:38:15] Espyo: mhm
[18/07/2014 23:38:34] Espyo: I think he posted on the comments section
[18/07/2014 23:39:05] Espyo: of the... Pikmin 2 page, I believe
[18/07/2014 23:39:13] Espyo: some of your content was written by me, as a result
[18/07/2014 23:39:22] Espyo: like, I was the one that added the entire section about unused cave units
[18/07/2014 23:39:29] Espyo: like a four-way crossing on soil-themed caves
[18/07/2014 23:39:40] jpmrocks: that was you?
[18/07/2014 23:39:41] jpmrocks: wot
[18/07/2014 23:40:12] Espyo: yeah
[18/07/2014 23:40:16] jpmrocks: wow
[18/07/2014 23:40:17] Espyo: like I said, I've been digging apart Pikmin 2
[18/07/2014 23:41:08] jpmrocks: my words now feel conflicted of what i want to say
[18/07/2014 23:42:24] jpmrocks: like
[18/07/2014 23:42:56] jpmrocks: mmmm
[18/07/2014 23:43:08] jpmrocks: gah i don't know how to say what i want to say
[18/07/2014 23:43:26] Espyo: go ahead, don't feel constricted
[18/07/2014 23:43:47] jpmrocks: i want to say "You keep talking about duplicated info but then theres two separate wikis"
[18/07/2014 23:43:55] jpmrocks: and then theres
[18/07/2014 23:44:07] jpmrocks: you even give little tie bits of info too
[18/07/2014 23:44:19] jpmrocks: i am a simple minded man
[18/07/2014 23:44:22] Espyo: for unused content, I only post it on TCRF
[18/07/2014 23:44:24] jpmrocks: and i might be overthinking this
[18/07/2014 23:44:30] Espyo: I never posted the unused cave units on Pikipedia
[18/07/2014 23:44:35] jpmrocks: oh
[18/07/2014 23:44:41] Espyo: they are uploaded, because at the time, I didn't realize they were unused
[18/07/2014 23:44:41] jpmrocks: but again
[18/07/2014 23:44:48] Espyo: but we never do anything with them
[18/07/2014 23:44:56] Espyo: ...which makes the unused cave unit images unused inside the wiki, funnily enough
[18/07/2014 23:45:04] jpmrocks: at least here at the wiki, we want you guys to come back
[18/07/2014 23:45:17] Espyo: we want to be united too
[18/07/2014 23:45:18] jpmrocks: it's like the painting "Creation of Man"
[18/07/2014 23:45:24] Espyo: hehe
[18/07/2014 23:45:35] jpmrocks: we're the naked stud and you guys are the creators
[18/07/2014 23:45:44] Espyo: yes
[18/07/2014 23:45:50] Espyo: though, that'd be the other way around, no?
[18/07/2014 23:46:00] jpmrocks: well you guys technically made us
[18/07/2014 23:46:12] jpmrocks: green pickle taught me basic script hella long time ago
[18/07/2014 23:46:14] Espyo: yes, but I mean the "coming back" part
[18/07/2014 23:46:18] Espyo: we were the ones that created the wiki
[18/07/2014 23:46:24] Espyo: Greenpickle et al more than me
[18/07/2014 23:46:41] Espyo: the thing is, we left for a defined reason
[18/07/2014 23:46:50] jpmrocks: and we're hoping you guys come back
[18/07/2014 23:46:50] Espyo: we could not live with a home like wikia
[18/07/2014 23:46:54] Espyo: and Porple gave us a good home
[18/07/2014 23:47:06] Espyo: we now have a wiki hosted in a service that acts like a regular wiki
[18/07/2014 23:47:16] Espyo: we want the information to be free, accessible, and professional
[18/07/2014 23:47:23] Espyo: and wikia couldn't provide us with what we needed
[18/07/2014 23:47:40] Espyo: as such, for the wiki to survive in the way we planned, it had to leave wikia
[18/07/2014 23:47:42] Espyo: so that is why we left
[18/07/2014 23:47:57] Espyo: if it weren't for the search results on google, that'd have been the plan
[18/07/2014 23:48:11] Espyo: everybody would move to the new place, where we weren't confied by wikia's strange rules
[18/07/2014 23:48:14] jpmrocks: but why didn't y'all initiate the killcode when you all had it
[18/07/2014 23:48:19] Espyo: but unfortunately, it returned
[18/07/2014 23:48:21] Espyo: there was no killcode
[18/07/2014 23:48:27] Espyo: believe us, we tried to remove the wikia
[18/07/2014 23:48:30] Espyo: they STOPPED US
[18/07/2014 23:48:34] Espyo: they didn't want to let go
[18/07/2014 23:48:38] Espyo: they didn't want us to be free
[18/07/2014 23:48:49] Espyo: they didn't care about the information's freedom and the necessities of the users
[18/07/2014 23:48:52] Espyo: they just wanted what we had
[18/07/2014 23:48:56] Espyo: they couldn't bear to let it go
[18/07/2014 23:49:06] Espyo: they couldn't bear to let the fandom go towards progress
[18/07/2014 23:49:12] Espyo: the fans, they wouldn't care
[18/07/2014 23:49:15] Espyo: the users, they wouldn't care
[18/07/2014 23:49:21] Espyo: the editors, the info, the research
[18/07/2014 23:49:24] Espyo: none of that would matter to them
[18/07/2014 23:49:27] jpmrocks: the wikis almost died too
[18/07/2014 23:49:29] jpmrocks: wikia
[18/07/2014 23:49:38] Espyo: they wanted to keep everything
[18/07/2014 23:49:40] jpmrocks: going through the edit calendar
[18/07/2014 23:49:45] Espyo: yeah, it had died out
[18/07/2014 23:49:50] jpmrocks: there was like 8 months of almost no activity
[18/07/2014 23:50:00] Espyo: but because of the search results, unguided souls who wanted to help came back to it
[18/07/2014 23:50:04] Espyo: it was meant to be abandoned
[18/07/2014 23:50:15] jpmrocks: and now here we all
[18/07/2014 23:50:15] Espyo: it was meant to be left behind, and the place for Pikmin information was meant to be at Pikipedia
[18/07/2014 23:50:19] Espyo: but unfortunately, it grew
[18/07/2014 23:50:21] Espyo: it was never meant to
[18/07/2014 23:50:25] Espyo: it grew out of control
[18/07/2014 23:50:28] Espyo: and before we could do anything...
[18/07/2014 23:50:36] Espyo: the thing we had abanonded grew to rival us
[18/07/2014 23:50:50] jpmrocks: it started as a rival cause the few who did stay
[18/07/2014 23:50:51] Espyo: as time passed on, wikia became less and less cooperative about it
[18/07/2014 23:50:59] Espyo: nobody did stay
[18/07/2014 23:51:03] Espyo: pretty much everybody left
[18/07/2014 23:51:13] jpmrocks: Shadowraptor lingered here and there
[18/07/2014 23:51:17] Espyo: new people came about, that was the problem
[18/07/2014 23:51:20] jpmrocks: Horrific brit, who was apparently a founder stayed
[18/07/2014 23:51:26] Espyo: yeah, but it wasn't so much a "stay"
[18/07/2014 23:51:31] Espyo: it was more like a "meh, whatever"
[18/07/2014 23:51:34] Espyo: which resulted in a not-move
[18/07/2014 23:51:43] Espyo: which resulted in a stay, which...
[18/07/2014 23:51:52] jpmrocks: cause two seperatew foundations
[18/07/2014 23:51:59] Espyo: we did try more times to convince the wikia staff to let us be
[18/07/2014 23:52:11] Espyo: to please let us withdraw our people back to the home of Pikmin information
[18/07/2014 23:52:14] Espyo: they never cared
[18/07/2014 23:52:18] Espyo: they banned one of us, IIRC
[18/07/2014 23:52:29] Espyo: this didn't just happen on Pikmin
[18/07/2014 23:52:34] Espyo: it happened for the likes of Smash Bros. as well
[18/07/2014 23:52:42] Espyo: and the more independent wikis I see
[18/07/2014 23:52:51] Espyo: the more I know about the horrible battles they had to go through, much like ours
[18/07/2014 23:52:59] Espyo: a lot of people wanted to move
[18/07/2014 23:53:05] Espyo: wikia never let them, they didn't want to
[18/07/2014 23:53:16] Espyo: they couldn't understand why people leave, and kept insisting like a spoiled brat
[18/07/2014 23:53:33] Espyo: they could've let us go to a better place, and maybe remain with whatever wikis didn't leave, not to mention smaller wikis
[18/07/2014 23:53:42] Espyo: like, there are a great deal of smaller wikis that can't be hosted elsewhere
[18/07/2014 23:53:47] Espyo: like the Binding of Isaac wiki
[18/07/2014 23:53:57] Espyo: unless the creator of the game hosts a wiki, nobody will really
[18/07/2014 23:54:08] Espyo: we just got lucky because of the smashing boom NIWA is, and because Pikmin is Nintendo
[18/07/2014 23:54:12] Espyo: otherwise, we'd have a hard time moving
[18/07/2014 23:54:23] Espyo: a lot of wikis could remain, and, like I said, the new smaller ones
[18/07/2014 23:54:33] Espyo: but they couldn't want that, they insisted on wanting it all
[18/07/2014 23:54:53] Espyo: Doom wiki, Star Wars wiki, Star Trek wiki, Mario wiki, Smash wiki... Pikmin wiki
[18/07/2014 23:55:00] Espyo: everybody fought so hard to move to a better place, but to no avail
[18/07/2014 23:55:06] Espyo: some succeeded, like Smash wiki
[18/07/2014 23:55:16] Espyo: nobody goes on Smash wikia any more, and Smash wiki is an incredibly rich site
[18/07/2014 23:55:24] Espyo: but others... just ended up where we are
[18/07/2014 23:55:34] jpmrocks: you guys do or did have the best
[18/07/2014 23:55:43] Espyo: yeah...
[18/07/2014 23:55:50] Espyo: the more we looked back at wikia's progression, the more we noticed how little they cared about the information or the fans
[18/07/2014 23:55:52] Espyo: they just wanted people
[18/07/2014 23:55:56] Espyo: nothing else mattered
[18/07/2014 23:56:09] Espyo: they grab the people using the likes of avatars and blog systems
[18/07/2014 23:56:20] Espyo: this might sound like some sort of conspiracy theory, but it's the truth
[18/07/2014 23:56:25] Espyo: no other wiki system does that
[18/07/2014 23:56:29] jpmrocks: i do believe you
[18/07/2014 23:56:31] Espyo: they are the only ones to use these things
[18/07/2014 23:56:36] Espyo: and they're fine in and of themselves
[18/07/2014 23:56:42] Espyo: but they are all tools to keep the users in
[18/07/2014 23:56:45] Espyo: which, again, isn't a bad thing
[18/07/2014 23:57:00] jpmrocks: we don't really care for the tools tho, our wiki
[18/07/2014 23:57:00] Espyo: but when keeping the users in implies a theft of the information's freedom, that is just something I, as an editor, cannot live with
[18/07/2014 23:57:03] jpmrocks: we just have info
[18/07/2014 23:57:07] jpmrocks: and want to put it out
[18/07/2014 23:57:15] Espyo: I've worked for YEARS to get the pool of Pikmin information to where it is, dammit
[18/07/2014 23:57:18] Espyo: me, PikFan, J
[18/07/2014 23:57:21] Espyo: ...even you guys
[18/07/2014 23:57:24] Espyo: a lot of people helped
[18/07/2014 23:57:27] Espyo: a lot of people did a lot of things
[18/07/2014 23:57:29] jpmrocks: we all have the same goal
[18/07/2014 23:57:29] Espyo: and for what?
[18/07/2014 23:57:32] Espyo: for what?!
[18/07/2014 23:57:38] Espyo: so that in the end, we could have it all taken from us?
[18/07/2014 23:57:42] Espyo: the hard work we brought up
[18/07/2014 23:57:45] Espyo: none of that matters
[18/07/2014 23:57:51] Espyo: what matters is just keeping the users at wikia
[18/07/2014 23:57:54] jpmrocks: i mean yeah
[18/07/2014 23:58:01] jpmrocks: they will try to profit from your fruits
[18/07/2014 23:58:07] Espyo: they might need a lot of money to run their things, but they're greedy
[18/07/2014 23:58:08] jpmrocks: claim it as theirs
[18/07/2014 23:58:10] jpmrocks: and sell it
[18/07/2014 23:58:14] Espyo: yes, exactly
[18/07/2014 23:58:17 | Editado 23:58:20] Espyo: wikia started off good
[18/07/2014 23:58:20] jpmrocks: but i mean
[18/07/2014 23:58:25] jpmrocks: look at us now
[18/07/2014 23:58:27] Espyo: like wikipedia, it was a haven
[18/07/2014 23:58:30] Espyo: but they just lost their way
[18/07/2014 23:58:40] jpmrocks: thats unfortunately how the world works
[18/07/2014 23:58:45] Espyo: it is, I'm afraid
[18/07/2014 23:58:50] Espyo: I've seen it countless times
[18/07/2014 23:58:50] jpmrocks: and i mean
[18/07/2014 23:58:54] Espyo: it's never pretty
[18/07/2014 23:58:56] jpmrocks: we've grinned and barred
[18/07/2014 23:59:00] jpmrocks: and we still do complain
[18/07/2014 23:59:09] Espyo: but that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight for it
[18/07/2014 23:59:10] jpmrocks: but i think for the knowledge we've had
[18/07/2014 23:59:19] jpmrocks: we done good
[18/07/2014 23:59:25] Espyo: they have every right to manipulate things to run in their favor
[18/07/2014 23:59:29] Espyo: they wouldn't survive otherwise
[18/07/2014 23:59:36] Espyo: but one thing's tilting the scale so that you profit
[18/07/2014 23:59:44] Espyo: another is being manipulative and greedy altogether
[18/07/2014 23:59:58] Espyo: they broke communities
[00:00:10] Espyo: even today, there are people that go on Metroid wikia, Doom wikia, EarthBound wikia
[00:00:17] Espyo: and others remain on the independent ones
[00:00:20] Espyo: everybody moved for a reason
[00:00:28] Espyo: but because wikia is so relentless, the communities had to split
[00:00:33] Espyo: they could profit, but at what cost?
[00:00:36] Espyo: is this really worth it?
[00:00:49] Espyo: is the breaking of commmunities really worth keeping up a major website?
[00:00:53] Espyo: they could've let us all live in harmony
[00:01:02] Espyo: they could've just been nicer, and nobody would have to quit
[00:01:07] Espyo: but they couldn't
[00:01:15] jpmrocks: i feel now its more of an individual community responsibility to keep the community in tack
[00:01:26] Espyo: yes, it is
[00:01:31] jpmrocks: it could easily be seen as a test
[00:01:32] Espyo: from a break that was never meant to happen
[00:01:47] jpmrocks: which communities are the strongest to survive
[00:01:53] Espyo: if it were a split up caused by a group liking, say, Metroid Other M, and another not, it'd be fine
[00:01:54] jpmrocks: i mean, pikmin has survived
[00:02:00] Espyo: but caused by a third party...
[00:02:08] Espyo: I don't think Pikmin has survived as well as it should have
[00:02:15] jpmrocks: we've hit rocks
[00:02:18] jpmrocks: and bumps
[00:02:28] Espyo: for one thing, I don't see as much activity as there should be
[00:02:31] Espyo: not just here, but everywhere
[00:02:33] Espyo: youtube, for one
[00:02:44] Espyo: in great part, this was because of this split
[00:02:50] jpmrocks: it could be that our separate wikis, we may not be compatible with each other anymore
[00:02:57] Espyo: besides gamefaqs, wikis are the places people go to to talk about their game's subjects
[00:03:07] Espyo: yes, but it should've never been the case
[00:03:15] Espyo: we work for a common goal: to have Pikmin information
[00:03:19] Espyo: we both are fans of the same thing: Pikmin
[00:03:29] Espyo: we both were walking the exact same path
[00:03:41] Espyo: but somewhere along the way, wikia's ways acted up, and this is where we are now
[00:04:06] Espyo: individual wikis provide us all that we need, and provide all that the information needs as well
[00:04:12] Espyo: let me give you another example: the carmageddon wiki
[00:04:23] Espyo: a few weeks ago, we finally moved from wikia to the official website
[00:04:34] Espyo: as soon as the wiki goes live, this will increase activity by at least 500%
[00:04:44] Espyo: I can safely say this, becaue up until now, not many people checked the wiki
[00:05:01] Espyo: and now that Carmageddon: Reincarnation is almost released, people will want to learn about the powerups, tracks and secrets
[00:05:05] Espyo: the wiki will flourish
[00:05:12] Espyo: without any of the obstacles wikia had presented to us
[00:05:21] Espyo: carmageddon wikia in particular was in a pretty lousy shape
[00:05:31] Espyo: I was one of the top contributors, but never given enough power to fix it
[00:05:40] Espyo: but that was only half of the problem the other half came from wikia
[00:05:46] Espyo: now that it moved, everything is working so much better
[00:05:50] Espyo: plus, this is the official website
[00:05:56] Espyo: it's now controlled and sponsored by Stainless
[00:06:12] Espyo: they won't do anything wrong; even an independent wiki has more chance of breaking
[00:06:21] Espyo: moving out of wikia was one of the best things we did
[00:06:31] Espyo: it might not immediately seem like it on our case, and I can tell why
[00:06:37] Espyo: it's a simple answer, but the background
[00:06:38] Espyo: it's outdated
[00:06:42] Espyo: it makes it look like we never evolved
[00:06:49] Espyo: we've been meaning to change that and the front page for a while
[00:06:58] Espyo: but up until now, all that really advanced was the content; what's under the surface
[00:07:11] Espyo: the mood of it all adds a big deal to it, and the background adds a lot to the mood
[00:07:17] Espyo: it may not look like it, but we florished
[00:07:20] Espyo: we florished greatly
[00:07:30] Espyo: there were quite a few things we could do on NIWA that we couldn't on wikia
[00:07:40] Espyo: the freedom was good, the information was in a good place
[00:08:10] Espyo: we had more control over things, we could do quality control better (less 5-year olds that edit wikis without even knowing how they work), we could use tools that didn't really exist
[00:08:15] Espyo: but, by far, on top of all that
[00:08:22] Espyo: we could finally rely on a good base
[00:08:27] Espyo: we didn't have to worry about layout changes
[00:08:33] Espyo: we didn't have to worry about new ads
[00:08:43] Espyo: we didn't have to worry about none of that, the wiki is ours, and we're in control
[00:08:50] Espyo: Pikipedia is a good home
[00:08:58] Espyo: we... cannot return to wikia
[00:09:04] Espyo: it would mean suicide to the growth of the information
[00:09:14] Espyo: even if it would unite the community, it wouldn't be the optimal solution
[00:09:25] Espyo: and I can assure you, I am not seeing 4+ years of work go to waste
[00:09:27] jpmrocks: we, unfortunately can't just leave from wikis either
[00:09:32] Espyo: nobody would bare to see that
[00:09:34] jpmrocks: wikia
[00:09:36] Espyo: you can leave
[00:09:43] Espyo: you can't "delete it", but you can come
[00:09:48] Espyo: you're always, 100% of the time, accepted there
[00:09:49] jpmrocks: we could
[00:09:51] jpmrocks: but
[00:10:05] Espyo: whereas on wikia, it would, like I said, mean having to throw all that grew for the information to be as it, behind
[00:10:10] jpmrocks: we've given the pikmin wikia too much rep for it to be worth while
[00:10:11] Espyo: I don't mean OUR information, I mean information in general
[00:10:19] Espyo: there's ours, and there's yours
[00:10:30] Espyo: that's why it would have to be a community effort to reunite
[00:10:37] Espyo: it wouldn't be a simple move between some admins
[00:10:43] jpmrocks: it may be even larger than just us wiki communities
[00:10:44] Espyo: it would have to be a worldwide motion
[00:10:48] shadowraptor101: I considered moving to NIWA, but it wasn't my thing really; I did not like the lack of aewthstetic design and how small the text was. The text was so small that pages would consist of a few lines with the rest being while translucency with a background depicting a copy n' pasted white pikmin sprout.
[00:11:00] Espyo: I know that, for instance, Reddit considers Pikipedia as the official one
[00:11:08] Espyo: we could convince other communities to leave wikia behind
[00:11:11] Espyo: like it was always meant to
[00:11:18] shadowraptor101: Seriously?
[00:11:21] jpmrocks: i do remmeber
[00:11:26] Espyo: shadowrun: I can see what you mean
[00:11:26] jpmrocks: when i decided to go back to wiki
[00:11:32] shadowraptor101: Most other places I have been around consider the Wikia one the official one
[00:11:32] jpmrocks: i found pikipedia and the pikmin wikia
[00:11:35] shadowraptor101: even TVtropes
[00:11:46] jpmrocks: I always felt that pikipedia was bland
[00:11:49] Espyo: tvtropes now links both, which I find a pleasant outcome
[00:11:51] jpmrocks: blank white background
[00:12:01] Espyo: I've grown used to the small text, but it can be arranged on a community agreement
[00:12:03] jpmrocks: it seemed too formal for my liking
[00:12:10] Espyo: and as for the blank white background
[00:12:18] Espyo: that's the thing, we've been meaning to change it
[00:12:19] jpmrocks: i mean, yes its important for it to be professional
[00:12:25] jpmrocks: but
[00:12:29] jpmrocks: we always did this for fun
[00:12:31] Espyo: see, I told yout it would raise a lot of the mood, the background
[00:12:38] Espyo: and there is fun to be had
[00:12:41] Espyo: let me tell you something
[00:12:47] Espyo: did you happen to visit Pikmin Fanon lately?
[00:12:49] Espyo: I mean, our fanon
[00:13:00] jpmrocks: within the past few months yeah
[00:13:05] jpmrocks: we pick and tease at it...
[00:13:10] shadowraptor101: The reason you gave was actually similar to my own; I decided to stay behind and heal the Wikia aftere dessertion because it seemed almost as if Pikipedioa was just as dead. At least, it did at the time
[00:13:12] Espyo: fanon is poor, yes
[00:13:16] Espyo: don't need to hide it
[00:13:34] Espyo: they have plans to improve it, but let's disregard the wiki itself for now
[00:13:44] Espyo: yes, it did seem at the time, but that's because back then, there was nothing else
[00:13:51] Espyo: it was too soon to add things like the enemy properties
[00:13:56] Espyo: as emulation was still fairly new
[00:14:01] Espyo: but it was too late, everything had been added
[00:14:06] Espyo: so no wonder Pikipedia felt dead
[00:14:15] Espyo: did you notice that I'm making an engine for Pikmin fangames, on Fanon?
[00:14:19] shadowraptor101: That is true. I remember I knew the Wikia was in need of serious help after I saw a fucking "Steve the Red Pikmin" article and threw up in my mouth
[00:14:29] Espyo: thank you, shadowrun
[00:14:33] jpmrocks: when i was searching for a home base wiki
[00:14:39] jpmrocks: i saw pikipedia was very plain
[00:14:40] Espyo: I'm not the only one that contemplated murder over the Steve article
[00:14:43] jpmrocks: and very dead
[00:14:46] Espyo: it was
[00:14:52] jpmrocks: and then pikmin wikia
[00:15:00] jpmrocks: there were a few active people
[00:15:07] Espyo: between the background, and the split, it naturally had a weaker look
[00:15:17] Espyo: it's the entire ordeal with the google results
[00:15:22] Espyo: you might've noticed two wikis
[00:15:27] jpmrocks: bing
[00:15:29] Espyo: but most people would only notice the first result
[00:15:30] Espyo: or bing
[00:15:31] jpmrocks: bings lists both of us
[00:15:34] Espyo: or go go duck
[00:15:37] shadowraptor101: The instant news about Pikmin 3 surfaces, I went to edit the article on Pikmin Wikia. Then, I saw Tommy and Josh editing as well. That was the start of the rebirth, and the birth of our skype group
[00:15:39] Espyo: anything would really give wikia in first place
[00:15:41] jpmrocks: google feasts off of wikia
[00:15:48] Espyo: yes, it does
[00:16:02] Espyo: even if that means pointing to places that shoul'd've been abandoned
[00:16:10] Espyo: anyway, regarding the background, like I said, we're meaning to change it
[00:16:12] Espyo: actually, to be honest
[00:16:20] Espyo: the plans were for me to get Pikmin 3 in late September
[00:16:29] Espyo: and then we'd change the backgruond then, after I were to add P3 info
[00:16:32] Espyo: as sort of a "milestone"
[00:16:46] Espyo: as for the "fun" aspect, that really doesn't mean much
[00:16:51] Espyo: we are professional, but we're not like, rigid
[00:16:54] shadowraptor101: I understand. I actually got both my Wii U and Pikmin 3 at launch
[00:17:00] Espyo: I couldn't afford it
[00:17:05] jpmrocks: :(
[00:17:12] Espyo: which also helped Pikipedia not flourish in Pikmin 3 info
[00:17:16] Espyo: but yeah, the fun
[00:17:31] Espyo: as I was saying, I'm making an engine for Pikmin fan games
[00:17:38] Espyo: and... it's progressing greatly
[00:17:41] Espyo: but it lacks attention
[00:17:48] Espyo: I can even cook up a screenshot right now
[00:17:53 | Editado 00:18:02] shadowraptor101: Yeah, I was wondering why the Skitterleaf article had info about "a recently-discovered new hostile species" 14 months after they were shown...
[00:18:04] Espyo: I can very easily bet that a whole bunch of users at Pikmin wiki would adore to play a fan game
[00:18:08] jpmrocks: its odd of where we should take it from here
[00:18:18] jpmrocks: a lot of people find comfort in the wikia's systems
[00:18:27] Espyo: a lot of people are just used to wikia
[00:18:30] jpmrocks: neat, pre made machines to do lines of script for us
[00:18:33] Espyo: I can't blame them, I was too, for the longest time
[00:18:48] Espyo: and that's the thing, anything a wikia can do, so can an indie wiki
[00:18:50] shadowraptor101: yeah. The only NIWA Wiki I frequently visit out of the desire to read its content is Zelda Wiki
[00:18:57] Espyo: the only thing it can't is like the comment section thingie
[00:19:03] Espyo: and heck, even that could be made with an addon
[00:19:04] jpmrocks: and telling them to go to pikipedia is kinda a shell shock
[00:19:18] Espyo: so in terms of functionality, it would be the same
[00:19:28] Espyo: it would be a shell shock, no doubt
[00:19:32] Espyo: I love Zelda wiki
[00:19:36] Espyo: it has so many interesting pages
[00:19:39] Espyo: and it's so well organized
[00:19:46] Espyo: we're aiming to reach their level, and we're getting there
[00:19:56] Espyo: (again, background and all is not helping for this case)
[00:20:00] jpmrocks: i mean, we could say, go and help pikipedia
[00:20:08] Espyo: if the community were to come to Pikipedia, it would have to be a gentle transition
[00:20:12] jpmrocks: our users would be confused
[00:20:42] Espyo: we couldn't go from one place with a lot of Pikmin 3 info and typos, to one with no Pikmin 3 info and professional articles
[00:20:46] Espyo: it was just be jarring
[00:20:51] shadowraptor101: I'd consider migrating or even merging if Pikipedia became a bit more userfriendly and more "fun". I know you said fun is not a top priorety for you guys, but it certainly attracted people for us. I just felt that making a place more fun would help it gain exposure.
[00:20:55] Espyo: that's why we'd have to, for instance, move your P3 articles to here
[00:20:59] Espyo: if the move is to take place
[00:21:11] Espyo: otherwise... Pikipedia will have to do its P3 articles
[00:21:20] Espyo: if no move is going to happen, then we don't want copy-pasted info
[00:21:31] Espyo: define fun
[00:21:37] Espyo: like, I can see what you mean
[00:21:39] Espyo: it feels dry
[00:21:39] jpmrocks: we always have had a blast
[00:21:42] jpmrocks: screwing around
[00:21:47] Espyo: I'm sure that's what you mean
[00:21:47] jpmrocks: while still getting work done
[00:21:53] Espyo: here, it feels... like we just do it
[00:22:01] Espyo: because it's the surface
[00:22:02] shadowraptor101: well we really have 3 main "fun" things we do in the Wikia:
[00:22:04] jpmrocks: we are, just a bunch of kids really
[00:22:16] Espyo: we lack users, which make us not have the grand-scale party of wikia
[00:22:20] jpmrocks: we know its important to be professional, which we sometimes are
[00:22:24] shadowraptor101: 1. We have this SKype Group where we chat, edit, play Pikmin together, ect
[00:22:39] Espyo: here's the thing: the surface
[00:22:42] Espyo: under it, we have an IRC channel
[00:22:50] Espyo: it's not very big, but it's where all the activity goes on
[00:22:53] Espyo: everything
[00:23:03] Espyo: everything from discussing fan ideas, to discoveries inside Pikmin 2
[00:23:06] shadowraptor101: 2. Work days/ We uisually pick a day out of the year, or month, where everyone works on the wiki non-stop for the full day.
[00:23:11] Espyo: to freaking playing IRC bot games!
[00:23:20] Espyo: I coded an IRC bot whose only purpose is to fuck around
[00:23:29] Espyo: he has a bunch of games, he has fun, pointless features
[00:23:45] Espyo: our sub-community isn't big, but it's darn pashionate
[00:23:59] Espyo: that work day thing could easily happen on Pikipedia
[00:24:02] Espyo: it doesn't because of the lack of users
[00:24:12] shadowraptor101: And 3: Our channel. IDK if u knew but Wikia has its own channel we made. We use it for uploading rare Pikmin content, tutorials, trivia, ect
[00:24:13] Espyo: and the Skype group would remain, by the way
[00:24:29] shadowraptor101: and we also bring awareness to the fandom's popular members
[00:24:35] Espyo: I think I looked around, and personally, I couldn't find it to be of the best professional value possible
[00:24:48] Espyo: no offense, but that's what I have to say about the channel
[00:24:57] Espyo: I mean, last I checked
[00:25:00] jpmrocks: we aren't professionals, thats the thing
[00:25:02] Espyo: I could be saying this outdatedly
[00:25:03] shadowraptor101: yes, I know. I am not the most frequent user. We actually share the channel
[00:25:17] jpmrocks: you, you are getting a job in this stuff
[00:25:19] jpmrocks: all of us
[00:25:22] jpmrocks: this is a fun past time
[00:25:26] Espyo: yes
[00:25:30] Espyo: I'm editing these pages for fun
[00:25:33] Espyo: I mean, I love the information
[00:25:42] Espyo: but you can't tell me I'm not having fun making some of these pages
[00:25:47] Espyo: some... are boring to make
[00:25:52] Espyo: but others I do it for pleasure
[00:25:55] Espyo: this isn't a job
[00:25:56] Espyo: a chore
[00:26:10] Espyo: we are all in the field of documenting Pikmin info because we like it, because we care
[00:26:32] shadowraptor101: I know what you mean. Unfortunately it's that attitude many of us share that results in so many projects going only partially-finished
[00:26:35] Espyo: and Pikipedia feels cold in that regard mostly because of the lack of users
[00:26:42] Espyo: while we focus on being professional, that can just be a side thing
[00:26:55] Espyo: there can be a whole huge mess of crazy things, and somebody on the side to do quality control
[00:27:12] Espyo: partially-finished? what do you mean?
[00:27:15] Espyo: you mean either wiki?
[00:27:35] jpmrocks: i know our wikia doesn't always finish tasks we start
[00:27:57] shadowraptor101: I meant mostly for our Wiki
[00:28:02] Espyo: I can tell, frankly
[00:28:05] jpmrocks: i mean, we're just now really getting into Pikmin 3 multiplayer stuff
[00:28:10] Espyo: the articles we all have are... finished
[00:28:18] Espyo: that subject isn't an easy one
[00:28:25] Espyo: in order to fully explore it, you need two avid fans in the same room
[00:28:31] Espyo: so I can't blame you whatsoever
[00:28:42] jpmrocks: i mean is finished means, have all info, then yeah, we're finished
[00:28:52] jpmrocks: if its cleanup and high quality
[00:28:56] jpmrocks: then we're not finished
[00:28:59] Espyo: yeah, we mean cleanup and high quality
[00:29:04] Espyo: except, for some reason, the cave articles
[00:29:08] Espyo: some of those are just nightmares
[00:29:14] shadowraptor101: Well when I meant partially unfinished, I meant like those which have a massive ammount of dead links, like here http://www.pikminwiki.com/Shaggy_Long_Legs
[00:29:20] Espyo: I said to myself that I'd check ALL pages on the wiki after adding Pikmin 3 info
[00:29:28] shadowraptor101: Although I am hypocritical to say such,since we're also guilty of the exact same thing
[00:29:32] Espyo: yeah, I was on about non-Pikmin 3 things
[00:29:38] Espyo: we are mostly finished, but on non-P3 things
[00:29:40] shadowraptor101: oh, well of course.
[00:29:44] Espyo: P3 things, we are barely even started
[00:29:51] Espyo: this wouldn't be the case if the community hadn't split
[00:29:59] Espyo: we would've had both the professionalism and the Pikmin 3 info
[00:30:10] Espyo: I could predict that, right now, all we'd have to do left is add more pictures
[00:30:16] Espyo: because we'd have done basically everything
[00:30:56] Espyo: quite a few of us would like to hang out with other fans
[00:31:01] Espyo: some of us really are more rigid
[00:31:06] Espyo: not so much on the uh...
[00:31:10] Espyo: let's say, childish type
[00:31:16] Espyo: I mean this in the sense of talking about pointless things
[00:31:19] Greenpickle: the wiki was pretty much 'finished' before we even left Wikia
[00:31:22] Espyo: like "what your favorite Pikmin type" is
[00:31:30] Espyo: no, but we polished it up further
[00:31:37] Espyo: it was finished in content, but not in completionness
[00:31:40] Greenpickle: I'm pretty sure the Wikia wiki actually went downhill in the gap where there were no active editors
[00:31:46] Greenpickle: lots of vandalism and stuff
[00:31:50] jpmrocks: oh yeah
[00:31:53] Espyo: but yeah, not all of us are the type of following pointless conversation topics, while others are
[00:31:59] Espyo: I'm personally so-so
[00:32:01] jpmrocks: we cleaned the graffiti off the walls for a long while
[00:32:07] Espyo: I don't mind discussing theories and crazy shenanigans
[00:32:14] Espyo: but I prefer discussing the more technical side of the games
[00:32:16] Espyo: glitches and such
[00:32:28] Espyo: no doubt pre-split Pikmin wiki was a bit trashy
[00:32:32] Espyo: complete, but unpolished
[00:32:41] jpmrocks: i think thats what we are
[00:32:48] jpmrocks: complete in most aspects, not polished
[00:32:52] Espyo: yeah, whereas we are a lot more polished
[00:32:59] Espyo: we still have some bits left, but we are really close
[00:33:10] jpmrocks: you guys will make a page, and work on it till it's spick and span
[00:33:14] Espyo: except we're missing the P3 info
[00:33:16] Espyo: yeah
[00:33:20] jpmrocks: we learn something, make a page
[00:33:23] jpmrocks: then add info afterwards
[00:33:25] Espyo: and even if it's not, we'll add notes so that the page doesn't eventually end up forgotten
[00:33:38] Espyo: the {{ToDo}} template saved countless articles
[00:34:03] shadowraptor101: The main reason for our ugly pages really, is the fact that we'd tend to make pages about anything Pikmin 3-related once we learned about its existence, regardless of whether or not we even know what the hell it was called
[00:34:17] Espyo: of course
[00:34:20] Espyo: and I can respect that
[00:34:28] Espyo: and we'd do that too, honestly
[00:34:31] Espyo: except... we don't have the P3 info
[00:34:36] Espyo: so all we have left to do is the polish
[00:35:50] Espyo: so yeah, even though we aim for professionalism
[00:35:52] Espyo: this isn't like the army
[00:35:59] Espyo: where we don't tolerate slacking off
[00:36:11] ymmot392: I have not finished reading everything
[00:36:23] Espyo: if that were the case, things like http://www.pikminwiki.com/Formidable_Oak would've been deleted already
[00:36:27] ymmot392: Hi by the way, obviously, I am Ymmot392
[00:36:32] Espyo: you have like 4 hours of content to check out
[00:36:36] Espyo: and yeah, hi, I'm Espyo
[00:36:54] Espyo: I'm actually subscribed to you on YT
[00:36:56] ymmot392: I am highly considering that we transition to Pikipedia
[00:37:10] jpmrocks: we are considering
[00:37:19] ymmot392: there is no better time then now, in between Pikmin 3's release, and before SSB4
[00:37:25] Espyo: yes
[00:37:35] Espyo: from here on out, I think the gash between the two of us would be too big to bridge
[00:37:37] jpmrocks: we just have to make sure
[00:37:39] Espyo: *from there on out
[00:37:42] jpmrocks: the ENTIRE community knows
[00:37:43] ymmot392: since there is a lack of new information, and we can work on transferring any wanted info from the wikia to Pikipedia
[00:37:52] Espyo: yes, we can't leave anybody behind
[00:37:56] Espyo: we'd have to get everybody to a single place
[00:38:11] jpmrocks: after all info is moved
[00:38:19] jpmrocks: we can start deleting pages here
[00:38:24] Espyo: you couldn't...
[00:38:26] Espyo: that's the problem
[00:38:27] jpmrocks: we can also cover our tracks
[00:38:28] Espyo: the wikia staff would now
[00:38:42] Espyo: they would revert your edits, ban you, and then we'd end up the same
[00:38:45] jpmrocks: we dropped from 1500 pages to 700 and wikis didn't bat an eye
[00:38:51] Espyo: really?
[00:38:55] jpmrocks: we KNOW how to cover up our tracks
[00:39:00] Espyo: well, you'd have to be inconspicuous
[00:39:01] jpmrocks: we've had to do it before
[00:39:04] Espyo: really?
[00:39:06] Espyo: please, elaborate
[00:39:11] jpmrocks: erhm
[00:39:20] jpmrocks: i don't know if its still a touchy subject
[00:39:31] Espyo: well, I'm not easily offended, if that's what you mean
[00:39:49] jpmrocks: not that
[00:40:35] jpmrocks: we are friends with a guy at nintendo
[00:40:57] jpmrocks: and we screwed up a little
[00:40:57] Espyo: I see
[00:41:02] ymmot392: Okay I'm nearing the bottom, hi Espyo! I'm glad you like my stuff
[00:41:06] jpmrocks: leaked too muh
[00:41:09] jpmrocks: but yeah
[00:41:12] shadowraptor101: he isn't a game developer, but he is an employee and he did tell us a lot of cool stuff
[00:41:21] Espyo: and you put it on the Pikmin wiki?
[00:41:33] jpmrocks: not as info, in a talk page
[00:41:44] Espyo: ymmot: to be honest, most of your videos don't interest me (not that I think they're bad), but the ones that do interest me are good
[00:41:49] Espyo: I only ever sub to people who make quality content
[00:41:51] shadowraptor101: we did accidentally on a talk page and then we were forced to take it down
[00:41:57] Espyo: youch
[00:42:09] Espyo: all this is now moot, though, right?
[00:42:12] Espyo: I mean, P3 is out now
[00:42:48] jpmrocks: we covered our tracks for that
[00:42:54] Espyo: right
[00:42:57] Espyo: well, that's good to know
[00:43:10] shadowraptor101: yeh
[00:43:20] Espyo: though I'm not sure if removing pages, combined with decreased activity would be completely safe
[00:43:32] Espyo: my idea would be to begin by deleting some vital pages, but not too vital
[00:43:40] Espyo: they might be able to spot wikis that have several red links
[00:43:45] Espyo: I mean, popular ones
[00:43:55] Espyo: then, purposely vandalize some articles, some important ones
[00:44:23] Espyo: if it's written that a Red Pikmin swoops from the sky and rescues Olimar when his ship is crashing in the bad ending of P1, the wikia staff wouldn't know that that was wrong
[00:44:34] Espyo: and from there, the activity reduction would have to be gradual
[00:44:44] ymmot392: Off topic and in the interest for better content, what kind of stuff do you like from my YouTube?
[00:44:49] Espyo: and then... hopefully, Pikmin wiki could be buried
[00:44:52] Espyo: oh, sure, let's see...
[00:45:10] Espyo: I can't remember, but I think that I subscribed to you, and then youtube forgot for months, and then I re-subbed?
[00:45:25] Espyo: the small clips, mostly the Pikmin ones
[00:45:53] Espyo: also the likes of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmqZ52bg3bU&list=UUY2FFYkWPBzs3Rllpxs-i1Q
[00:45:55] Espyo: always makes me giggle
[00:45:56] ymmot392: Hmm... small Pikmin clips?
[00:46:12] Espyo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX9-Kl5tVBQ&list=UUY2FFYkWPBzs3Rllpxs-i1Q like this
[00:46:13] ymmot392: I am glad you like that
[00:46:24] ymmot392: because that is my favorite video I have made recently
[00:46:31] Espyo: why didn't I see this before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQqqu4wZ4LM&list=UUY2FFYkWPBzs3Rllpxs-i1Q&index=20
[00:46:34] Espyo: pffthhaha, it's hilarious
[00:46:49] ymmot392: Hahahaha
[00:47:17] ymmot392: Do you at all enjoy my playthroughs?
[00:47:21] Espyo: and then playthrough videos of the like of Parrapa (I don't know the name, sorry), I'm not a fan
[00:47:23] Greenpickle: okay, since when does YouTube try to play a whole playlist without user intervention?
[00:47:29] Espyo: but that's only because I'm not a fan of playthroughs as a whole
[00:47:36] Espyo: since quite a while, really
[00:47:40] ymmot392: Yeaah I get that
[00:48:03] Espyo: but I can respect and easily understand why people would
[00:48:06] Espyo: heck, sometimes they're even useful
[00:48:22] Espyo: like when I want to re-check a part of a game I played long ago and can't be assed to boot up again
[00:48:41] ymmot392: Yeeaah I get you
[00:48:47] ymmot392: I sometimes do that too
[00:48:58] ymmot392: but I feel it's often better without extra commentary
[00:49:10] Espyo: definitely
[00:49:17] ymmot392: which is why I'm considering stopping narrating my videos
[00:49:17] Espyo: specially when it's done so amateurishly
[00:49:23] Espyo: I don't mean you
[00:49:25] Espyo: I meant in general
[00:49:31] Espyo: I never even saw any of your playthrough videos
[00:49:40] ymmot392: but apparently some people like listening to my boring ass voice lol
[00:49:50] Espyo: if you have an accent, people are crazy for that
[00:49:55] Espyo: I'm Portuguese, so I have an accent
[00:49:58] ymmot392: 0 accent
[00:50:03] Espyo: I try to hide it, but it always peeks
[00:50:07] ymmot392: Lol
[00:50:09] Espyo: and some people love it
[00:50:45] shadowraptor101: Meanwhile there's me,  who's mexican/black and from Texas
[00:50:48] shadowraptor101: so I have like 3 accents
[00:50:50] shadowraptor101: and I hate it
[00:50:54] Espyo: hehe
[00:51:01] Espyo: I hate my accent too, but apparently it's good...
[00:51:07] Espyo: mine isn't even a Portuguese accent, of all things
[00:51:14] Espyo: it's like of an... European-American mixup
[00:51:20] Espyo: because I grew up with a lot of American cartoons
[00:51:32] Espyo: but  I started talking in voice mostly with Brits
[00:51:46] Espyo: so I have this British way of thinking, with an American way of saying words, in a Portuguese accent
[00:52:22] Espyo: well, you guys know your users
[00:52:31] Espyo: would you say they'd be interested in playing a Pikmin fan game?
[00:52:45] ymmot392: Most likely
[00:52:53] Espyo: I am working on the engine
[00:52:56] Espyo: and I would ADORE feedback
[00:53:03] Espyo: but the feedback I'm getting at Pikmin Fanon isn't much
[00:53:09] Espyo: it's some, but people mostly want to see the final product
[00:53:15] Espyo: they don't want to follow the development that much
[00:53:35] Espyo: well, I'm developing an ENGINE, not a game
[00:53:40] Espyo: but I do plan on making a game alongside it
[00:53:54] ymmot392: I would be interested in seeing a screenshot or something
[00:54:00] Espyo: sure thing
[00:54:06] Espyo: I'll cook something up from my latest WIP
[00:54:18] Espyo: which is a good thing, because up until now, no shadows have been implemented
[00:54:23] Espyo: and everything looked incredibly plain
[00:54:47] ymmot392: I'm actually going to enroll in DigiPen, which is a video game development school, so maybe I might be able to help in the future
[00:55:06] Espyo: that would be great
[00:55:15] Espyo: I've got the programming side down
[00:55:20] Espyo: the graphics... well, they're ok, at best
[00:55:28] Espyo: so what I would really need is a graphics artist
[00:55:31] ymmot392: My focus is mostly animation and that stuff
[00:55:35] shadowraptor101: I gtg for the next hour...Legend of Korra calls my name. I shall return.
[00:55:49] Espyo: all right
[00:55:49] ymmot392: so I could probably help with graphics a lot
[00:55:55] Espyo: but it's getting late for me
[00:56:04] ymmot392: But i do wanna get into programming as well
[00:56:05] Espyo: so maybe we could talk again tomorrow at the same time
[00:56:14] Espyo: that'd be great if we could work together, ymmot
[00:56:18] Espyo: I'll still stay and chat for a few
[00:56:20] ymmot392: I'll be gone at camp unfortunately..
[00:56:23 | Editado 00:56:27] Espyo: my comment was mostly aimed at shadowraptor
[00:56:37] Espyo: urgh, where did I get "shadowrun" from... isn't that an NES game?
[00:56:38] ymmot392: Ooooh kay
[00:56:50] Espyo: anyway, yeah, I'll have vacation soon as well
[00:56:53] Espyo: and after that, probably a job
[00:57:03] ymmot392: Nooice
[00:57:06] ymmot392: Where are you going?
[00:57:23] Espyo: vacation, south of Portugal
[00:57:27] Espyo: always warm there
[00:57:33] ymmot392: Awesome
[00:57:39] Espyo: ...then again, it's always warm up on the north, during the summer, too
[00:57:44] Espyo: and yet it just finished raining a bucketload
[00:57:44] ymmot392: Lol
[00:57:49] Espyo: so iunno
[00:58:09] ymmot392: But back on topic
[00:58:21] ymmot392: I definately think we should move to Pikipedia
[00:58:32] Greenpickle: yeah, I intend to wake up tomorrow, so I should probably go too
[00:58:39] Espyo: night, GP
[00:58:43] ymmot392: Aight, seeya later
[00:58:49] Espyo: it would be for the best
[00:58:50] Greenpickle: seems like you managed to make some good progress here
[00:59:00] Espyo: the intrinsic things behind wikia are just slowly... killing wikis inside
[00:59:10] ymmot392: We just need to figure out what pages we want to keep, what templates and stuff we can transfer
[00:59:16] Espyo: GP: wait just a second, I can at least show you a screenshot
[00:59:23] Espyo: right
[00:59:37] Espyo: for the most part, all P3 content could be exported straight away, no changes
[00:59:43] Espyo: as for templates... we never really changed anything
[00:59:53] Espyo: most I can remember is me adding the Piklopedia number for enemy infoboxes
[00:59:58] Espyo: so tiny things like that
[01:00:03] Greenpickle: screenshot of what?
[01:00:05] Espyo: we'd have to compare the templates we have
[01:00:07] Espyo: the engine
[01:00:10] Espyo: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47921869/Pikmin_fangame_engine%202014-07-19%2000-58-31-21.png
[01:00:20] ymmot392: I remember I added info for Pikmin 3 inputs
[01:00:22] ymmot392: ;ole
[01:00:24] Espyo: I never showed anybody how it looked with shadows implemented
[01:00:25] ymmot392: like*
[01:00:34] Espyo: you mean the controls?
[01:00:34] Greenpickle: hmm
[01:00:44] ymmot392: weight in Pikmin 3, value in Pikmin 3, all that kinda stuff
[01:00:48] ymmot392: for enemy infobox
[01:00:51] Espyo: ah, yes
[01:01:00] Espyo: I got around to separating the HP, so that it's on a per-game basis
[01:01:02] ymmot392: We could merge all that stuff probably
[01:01:02] Greenpickle: it reminds me of something, but I'm not sure what
[01:01:05] Espyo: this was important because of a tooltip
[01:01:06] Espyo: yeah, we could
[01:01:14] Espyo: probably reminds you of earlier WIPs
[01:01:26] Greenpickle: my only complaint is the lack of AA on the geometry
[01:01:30] Espyo: no, but it might be the shadows that remind you of something
[01:01:35] Espyo: that's something I can't fix, though
[01:01:39] Espyo: wait, actually I might
[01:01:39] Greenpickle: could probably get around that by putting shadow on both sides of the line
[01:01:43] Espyo: with a hacky workaround
[01:01:55] Espyo: Allegro is OpenGL
[01:01:56] Greenpickle: with a smaller radius on the higher part
[01:01:58] Espyo: and OpenGL can do AA
[01:02:04] Espyo: but Allegro... can't
[01:02:13] Espyo: unless you enable an incredibly heavy option
[01:02:19] Espyo: which would make the game run at less than 4 fps
[01:02:23] Espyo: but I think I can manage a workaround
[01:02:29] Espyo: the geometry is pre-rendered
[01:02:34] Greenpickle: does the overall shadow map (the one with the leaf shadows) move?
[01:02:43] Espyo: only the leaves
[01:02:52] Espyo: not like an image on the disk, but it's created at start and kept as a single image
[01:02:59] Espyo: I coul probably render it at 4 times the size and re-shrink it
[01:03:01] Espyo: boom, AA
[01:03:07] Espyo: that IS basically what AA is
[01:03:16] Espyo: rendering at 2/4 times the size and reshrinking with interpolation
[01:03:50] Espyo: yeah, if I zoom out in-game, it looks smooth
[01:03:50] Greenpickle: yeah, that's actually one way of doing it, generally gives the best results at the highest performance cost
[01:03:59] Espyo: and if I zoom in it looks like vomit
[01:04:13] Espyo: yeah, but that's the thing, I'm not doing this "AA" on the fly
[01:04:17] Espyo: the image is only created once
[01:04:23] Espyo: so I can create it at 4x
[01:04:25] Espyo: and rendered it at 1x
[01:04:33] Espyo: I can render anything at any size in linear time
[01:04:45] Espyo: the tree shadows are just one image
[01:04:55] Espyo: and it's like 800x600
[01:04:58] Espyo: not huge, but still big
[01:05:06] Espyo: and Allegro handles it like if it were a 8x8 picture
[01:05:28] Espyo: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47921869/Pikmin_fangame_engine%202014-07-19%2001-05-13-09.png see, looks fine zoomed out
[01:05:35] Greenpickle: also, Olimar's looking a bit dim for some reason
[01:05:46] Espyo: oh, uh, sorry for the tech-talk here, guys
[01:05:48] Espyo: (and gals?)
[01:05:56] Espyo: I made the areas darker
[01:06:05] Espyo: I can always revert it, I'll just have to balance it
[01:06:16] Espyo: actually, I can't remember why I decided darker should be the default
[01:06:26] Espyo: if you want like a small shed, you probably want it darker
[01:06:28] Greenpickle: anyway, yeah, we should stop spamming here and I should go sleep
[01:06:28] Espyo: and the outside lighter
[01:06:32] Espyo: but... this is the outside, so...
[01:06:36] Espyo: hehe, night
[01:06:41] Greenpickle: looks good though
[01:06:45] Espyo: thanks
[01:07:01] Espyo: what are your thoughts, everybody else?
[01:07:12] Espyo: I'd prefer brutally honest opinions
[01:07:17] Espyo: even if they end up being "it looks horrible"
[01:08:07] Ymmot: This screenshot looks nice!
[01:08:12] Espyo: thanks!
[01:08:21] Espyo: it doesn't feel all that great in motion
[01:08:28] Espyo: there are animations, but they're like 4 frames only
[01:08:39] Espyo: but I can easily imagine excellent fan games coming out of this
[01:08:56] Ymmot: Yeah
[01:09:15] Espyo: the internals are working nicely
[01:09:18] Espyo: it's already pretty powerful
[01:09:28] Espyo: and the more I envision things coming together, the better they work
[01:09:30] Ymmot: I honestly thought you were essentially remaking the Pikmin engine, but this is really cool as well
[01:09:44] Ymmot: Err
[01:09:48] Ymmot: Is it 3D?
[01:10:04] Espyo: unfortunately, no
[01:10:07] Espyo: 2D, top-down only
[01:10:10] Ymmot: Eh, still cool
[01:10:22] Espyo: it'd have to be
[01:10:25] Espyo: for one thing, I'm not too good with 3D
[01:10:32] Espyo: I did learn 3D in college, but it didn't do much
[01:11:16] Espyo: I mean, but I didn't become very good at it
[01:11:20] Ymmot: Can this engine detect the height of the Pikmin?
[01:11:23] Espyo: not quite sure where I was going with that one
[01:11:23] Espyo: it can
[01:11:23] Ymmot: like
[01:11:27] Ymmot: Niice
[01:11:29] Espyo: right now, it does something
[01:11:39] Espyo: like, on the second screenshot, you'll notice some Reds and Yellows are larger than the rest
[01:11:44] Espyo: supposedly, they're on a higher platform
[01:11:49] Espyo: not sure if I'll keep this behavior, but
[01:11:56] Espyo: I'll quickly cook up a gif, and you'll see
[01:12:24] Ymmot: okay
[01:14:51] Espyo: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47921869/throws.gif framerate's kinda meh, but it shows the point
[01:15:32] Ymmot: That is REAALY COOL
[01:15:39] Ymmot: Althought
[01:15:48] Ymmot: I feel like they should get THAT big
[01:16:02] Ymmot: unless they are actually being thrown THAT high
[01:16:23] Espyo: hehe, I know what you mean
[01:16:24] Ymmot: So wait
[01:16:28] Espyo: balance will keep happening
[01:16:38] Espyo: and as for the height, it's so sketchy right now...
[01:16:48] Espyo: they only aren't thrown 30 km into the air because I fixed something recently
[01:16:53] Espyo: because they were at first going to
[01:16:58] Ymmot: Is the Captain controlled with WASD, and the cursor controlled with Mouse?
[01:17:03] Espyo: exactly
[01:17:07] jpmrocks: we're talking with a few our our guys in skype
[01:17:08] Ymmot: Niiiice
[01:17:09] Espyo: though the controls are 100% configurable
[01:17:16] Espyo: you can even play with a gamepad
[01:17:17] jpmrocks: and there's one thing we need to know
[01:17:18] Ymmot: Sweet
[01:17:21] Espyo: and even with the old GCN method
[01:17:24] Espyo: mhm?
[01:17:28] Ymmot: Wow
[01:17:32] jpmrocks: will copy and pasting our source to yours will work
[01:17:39] Espyo: it will
[01:17:44] Espyo: it's how we ported the info
[01:17:48] Espyo: we didn't re-write from scratch
[01:17:54] Espyo: that's why a few of our articles are 100% identical
[01:17:58] Espyo: maybe the oldest ones
[01:18:04] jpmrocks: so if we do move, copt and paste ahaoy
[01:18:08] Espyo: there's a feature in every wiki where you can import and export
[01:18:14] Espyo: not even so brutely
[01:18:22] Espyo: we can use the feature to export into a file, and reimport
[01:18:24] Espyo: and it's instantenous
[01:18:28] Espyo: ports everything
[01:18:30] Espyo: even edit histories
[01:18:38] Espyo: so your histories of edits won't disappear
[01:19:01] Espyo: of course, I think this is needless to say
[01:19:07] Espyo: but you're admins on wikia, you'll remain admins here
[01:19:37] Espyo: but we might have to renounce a couple of small things
[01:19:40] Espyo: like, for one, the cursor
[01:19:47] Espyo: it may look again like we're being rigid
[01:19:53] Espyo: but it's... let's be honest
[01:20:00] Espyo: no webpage uses a cursor in over eight years
[01:20:12] Espyo: any page that uses it nowadays is either showing some neat trick, or downright insane
[01:20:24] Espyo: plus if we were to use a cursor, it'd have to something that'd fit better for a cursor
[01:20:29] Espyo: I don't know, maybe a leaf
[01:20:34] Espyo: it has a bulbous part and a pointy bit
[01:21:46] Ymmot: Honestly I didn't care too much for the cursor
[01:22:03] Ymmot: but if anything, either a leaf cursor, or a Captain cursor
[01:22:12] Espyo: yeah
[01:22:18] Espyo: ideally, nothing at all
[01:22:20] Ymmot: We're fine without one
[01:22:25] Espyo: not even profesionalism or anything, it's just silly
[01:22:30] Espyo: but IF it were to exist, it'd have to be better
[01:22:38] Espyo: but still, this is something that can always be discussed
[01:22:38] Ymmot: yup
[01:22:45] Espyo: and we'd still have a fair share of "funner" content
[01:22:46] Espyo: like
[01:22:52] Espyo: one of the pages I plan on making, REAL soon
[01:22:58] Espyo: is a page with mistakes in the franchises
[01:23:05] Ymmot: Ooo nice
[01:23:06] Espyo: just exposing all sorts of stupid mistakes
[01:23:20] Espyo: like, did you read Olimar's Notes for the Magical Stage?
[01:23:25] Espyo: it's an European treasure
[01:23:27] Espyo: but it has a typo
[01:23:32] Espyo: it's really funny
[01:23:38] Espyo: it's still a professional article, a professional subject
[01:23:42] Espyo: but a TON of fun to read
[01:23:49] Espyo: I can't WAIT to create that article
[01:24:21] Ymmot: LOL
[01:24:30] jpmrocks: lol
[01:24:42] Ymmot: a wooden contruction engine?
[01:25:00] Espyo: hmm?
[01:25:12] Espyo: I'm actually not sure if it's the Magical Stage
[01:25:17] Espyo: I'll check real quick
[01:25:22] Ymmot: It doesn't make sense
[01:26:10] Ymmot: On magical stage, whichthe compact mirror, Olimar says it looks like a wooden construction engine
[01:26:38] Espyo: oh, it's actually the Sales Pitch
[01:26:44] Espyo: Olimar's a goof
[01:26:48] Espyo: and yeah, that's not wood
[01:26:50] Espyo: hmm
[01:30:47] Espyo: but yeah, "with it's supernatural loveliness"
[01:30:51] Espyo: should be "its supernatural"
[01:30:58] Ymmot: ohh lol
[01:31:00] Espyo: plus, things like the carrying oversights
[01:31:07] Espyo: like I said that I'd ripped P2 apart
[01:31:18] Espyo: I found out how to map the waypoints Pikmin take to carry things
[01:31:24] Espyo: and created actual maps of their routes
[01:31:30] Espyo: and in the process, discovered a ton of oversights
[01:31:32] Ymmot: Ohhh yeah
[01:31:40] Ymmot: I actually found the file for the waypoints
[01:31:44] Espyo: like, if you let Pikmin carry the leader near certain walls, they'll carry it over the walls
[01:31:48] Ymmot: I didn't know how to manipulate it though
[01:31:55] Espyo: I read them, and the format seemed easy
[01:31:58] Ymmot: doesn't it have coordinates?
[01:31:59] Espyo: they had the coordinates at one point
[01:32:06] Ymmot: Oooookay gotcha
[01:32:06] Espyo: so I just wrote a program to drop the coordinates on top of an image
[01:33:09] Ymmot: I showed the previews of the engine to some of the people from the Pikmin wiki, they love it
[01:33:19] Espyo: :)
[01:33:22] Espyo: that's great to know
[01:33:29] Espyo: I want to share the engine with as many people as possible
[01:33:36] Ymmot: I gotta brb, gotta help my mom
[01:33:51] Espyo: all right
[01:34:22] jpmrocks: sorry, I've been chatting with our guys
[01:34:35] Espyo: hmm?
[01:34:42] jpmrocks: so
[01:34:44] Espyo: sorry as in you have bad news, or sorry you couldn't chat here?
[01:34:52] jpmrocks: we have 7/24 votes
[01:34:58] jpmrocks: as in i couldn't chat here
[01:35:01] Espyo: ah
[01:35:05] Espyo: what are those votes for?
[01:35:24] jpmrocks: if we're gaming for going to pikipedia
[01:35:29] jpmrocks: we do like to keep it as a vote
[01:35:51] Espyo: of course
[01:35:59] Espyo: democracy > burocracy
[01:36:01] jpmrocks: but if we get SneakySpy and Shadowraptor to go for it
[01:36:08] jpmrocks: we're going for it
[01:36:24] jpmrocks: but if we get like 75% of our non admins to go for it
[01:36:33] jpmrocks: we'll go for it, regardless of kevin and luther
[01:36:36] jpmrocks: so
[01:36:43] jpmrocks: we hope to have all votes by monday
[01:37:02] Espyo: all right, that'd be good
[01:37:10] Espyo: let's hope
[01:37:12] jpmrocks: and to start our transition by Augest 1st
[01:37:21] Espyo: we'll do anything in our power to help your move be as smooth as possible
[01:37:30] Espyo: the second you start the move, you are no longer "the other wiki"
[01:37:33] Espyo: you are "us"
[01:37:35] Espyo: and we are "you"
[01:37:44] Espyo: are there any votes against, so far?
[01:37:53] Espyo: oh, and remember to keep this under wraps from wikia
[01:37:56] Espyo: or else...
[01:38:07] Espyo: they could even ban you all for "betrayal", by even thinking about it

This is a semi-random cut-off point.