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Talk:Obstacle: Difference between revisions
Further discussion on the meaning of categories
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::*'''Ambiguous''': [[Bloominous Stemple]], [[climbing stick]], [[electrode]], [[fragment]]s, [[hay]], [[iron ball]], [[Kingcap]], [[large crystal]], [[liftable rock]], [[pulley rock]], [[small crystal]], [[Spotcap]] | ::*'''Ambiguous''': [[Bloominous Stemple]], [[climbing stick]], [[electrode]], [[fragment]]s, [[hay]], [[iron ball]], [[Kingcap]], [[large crystal]], [[liftable rock]], [[pulley rock]], [[small crystal]], [[Spotcap]] | ||
::As you can see, there's a fair bit of ambiguity and subjectivity. I'd even argue that [[boulder]]s and [[icicle crystal]]s aren't even obstacles, they're just [[hazard]]s. Most of the ambiguous items are ambiguous because they are connected to an obstacle without being an obstacle on their own, or have the potential to be either obstacles or not obstacles. While it makes sense to separate non-obstacle interactive objects from the other obstacles, is it worth doing if the result would lead to so many ambiguities? Or is there another way to define these kinds of objects with less ambiguity? — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:54, September 24, 2021 (EDT) | ::As you can see, there's a fair bit of ambiguity and subjectivity. I'd even argue that [[boulder]]s and [[icicle crystal]]s aren't even obstacles, they're just [[hazard]]s. Most of the ambiguous items are ambiguous because they are connected to an obstacle without being an obstacle on their own, or have the potential to be either obstacles or not obstacles. While it makes sense to separate non-obstacle interactive objects from the other obstacles, is it worth doing if the result would lead to so many ambiguities? Or is there another way to define these kinds of objects with less ambiguity? — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:54, September 24, 2021 (EDT) | ||
:::Hazards define an abstract danger. Impaling is a hazard, but the icicle crystals are physical objects. So defining those as hazards isn't right, IMO. | :::Hazards define an abstract danger. Impaling is a hazard, but the icicle crystals are physical objects. So defining those as hazards isn't right, IMO. | ||
:::Maybe the problem is that we're trying to categorize things that shouldn't be categorized. After all, I don't think even the games themselves make any distinction. Sure, some obstacles are internally enemies because it's easier to code them for things like HP and all, but other than that, things are just "objects" and that's all. Maybe the page should be about interactive objects, and then we can split them subjectively in a clear, non-technical way, like dangerous objects, helpful objects, objects that are in the way of carrier Pikmin, etc. — '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 12:28, September 30, 2021 (EDT) | :::Maybe the problem is that we're trying to categorize things that shouldn't be categorized. After all, I don't think even the games themselves make any distinction. Sure, some obstacles are internally enemies because it's easier to code them for things like HP and all, but other than that, things are just "objects" and that's all. Maybe the page should be about interactive objects, and then we can split them subjectively in a clear, non-technical way, like dangerous objects, helpful objects, objects that are in the way of carrier Pikmin, etc. — '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 12:28, September 30, 2021 (EDT) | ||
::::Ooh, that's a good idea. Let's try to classify the list again. | ::::Ooh, that's a good idea. Let's try to classify the list again. | ||
::::*'''Barriers''': [[Bamboo gate]], [[bramble gate]], [[brick wall]], [[bridge]], [[cardboard box]], [[cobblestone block]], [[crystal wall]], [[dirt block]], [[dirt wall]], [[electric gate]], [[iron block]], [[paper bag]] (''Pikmin 2)'', [[reinforced wall]], [[tin box]], [[trowel]], [[tunnel]], [[wooden stake]] | ::::*'''Barriers''': [[Bamboo gate]], [[bramble gate]], [[brick wall]], [[bridge]], [[cardboard box]], [[cobblestone block]], [[crystal wall]], [[dirt block]], [[dirt wall]], [[electric gate]], [[iron block]], [[paper bag]] (''Pikmin 2)'', [[reinforced wall]], [[tin box]], [[trowel]], [[tunnel]], [[wooden stake]] | ||
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:::::*'''Containers''': crystals, Spotcap, dirt mound, flukeweed, egg. Basically anything that can (not always) contain something good inside. | :::::*'''Containers''': crystals, Spotcap, dirt mound, flukeweed, egg. Basically anything that can (not always) contain something good inside. | ||
:::::*'''Puzzle elements''': same. Basically, anything whose purpose in the gameplay, and in the world, is to just provide some puzzle challenge. | :::::*'''Puzzle elements''': same. Basically, anything whose purpose in the gameplay, and in the world, is to just provide some puzzle challenge. | ||
:::::*'''Transporter | :::::*'''Transporter''': Bouncy Mushroom, geyser, lily pad. Basically, anything that transports Pikmin and leaders elsewhere. | ||
:::::*'''Tools''': climbing stick, conveyor belt, fragments, hay, iron ball. Basically anything that serves no purpose other than to be exploited by the Pikmin to reach some goal. | :::::*'''Tools''': climbing stick, conveyor belt, fragments, hay, iron ball. Basically anything that serves no purpose other than to be exploited by the Pikmin to reach some goal. | ||
:::::*'''Breakable objects | :::::*'''Breakable objects''': Burgeoning Spiderwort mold, crystal nodule. | ||
:::::I feel like it's not there yet, but I think this is going to be an iterative thing. It'll go through many iterations till we reach something that makes sense. — '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 17:10, October 5, 2021 (EDT) | :::::I feel like it's not there yet, but I think this is going to be an iterative thing. It'll go through many iterations till we reach something that makes sense. — '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 17:10, October 5, 2021 (EDT) | ||
::::::I really like your "Traps" and "Dangerous obstacles" categories; they're definitely useful, and the rest of the categories are in the right direction. But there are a few difficult things to categorize. | |||
::::::Some of the most difficult are Spotcaps/Kingcaps and small/large crystals. On their own, they are rarely barriers, but are often found in groups that act as barriers. But it's never the case that you have to destroy all of the mushrooms/crystals in the group, just some of them. Plus, they can all hold items. So that's why I put them in a separate category, since their functions are so broad and different from everything else. | |||
::::::The "Puzzle objects" category is also a difficult one, because its objects can serve as barriers, but also tools and transporters. Most obstacles can be puzzles in some way, it's just that the puzzle objects are more like puzzles. Is it a useful category? | |||
::::::There's also the issue of associated objects: objects that are tied together. Here we have electrodes and Bloominous Stemples, iron balls and stone walls, fragments and bridges, and more minor things like conveyor belt switches and conveyor belts. Perhaps it would be worth putting every object whose only purpose is activating other objects into another category, such as "Activators". Though, almost every object in this category has some other function than just activating. Do we focus on the main function of each obstacle in categorization, or all its functions? | |||
::::::Some other notes: The clipboard is more of a container, except in the 1 instance where it acts as a bridge. It could also be worthwhile having a category for objects that are associated with enemies (the Arachnode web, Burgeoning Spiderwort mold, and crystal nodule). — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 17:53, October 5, 2021 (EDT) | |||