Talk:Stubborn rocks
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Validity of
i like the brick wall :D – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fernando Urista • (talk) • (contribs)
me too ==:3
— 
CrazyCow
Name?[edit]
The TCRF page for Pikmin 3 lists unused lock-on names for various objects, and one of them is "Stubborn Rocks", referring to this wall (according to this). Considering the other unused names there ("Bomb Rock", "Electrode", "Sleeping Beauty") tend to be consistent with other sources, could this page be moved to "Stubborn Rocks"? 2 B (talk) 07:29, July 10, 2024 (EDT)
- I don't think "Stubborn Rocks" is a very good name for this obstacle, because it doesn't describe it very well. Since the name is unused, we don't have to use it on the wiki, so I think we should continue to use "Brick wall". We could note this unused name on the article though. — Soprano(talk) 19:54, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
- I'm not really sure what about "Stubborn Rocks" doesn't describe the obstacle well. If anything "Brick wall" doesn't really describe the obstacle well since the wall isn't made out of bricks, it's made out of rocks that vaguely resemble bricks that doesn't go down like traditional walls. Twins1105 (talk) 20:05, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
- Unused internal names generally take priority over purely fan-made ones. For instance,
kakureimois referred to as such because it's technically the most official, even if "yellow slug" might be more convenient. Likewise, the names of songs in Pikmin 2 are also based on their internal names (unless they're arbitrary like the ones that say "new"), even if the fan-made ones are more convenient. —
CrazyCow 20:32, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
- the unused enemy is, well, unused. The difference here is that the stubborn rocks are an obstacle which is easily seen in normal gameplay. It's unfair to expect a reader to know this common obstacle's unused name, as its impossible to see legitimately. Which is why we prefer unofficial, simple descriptive names in these cases. PopitTart (talk) 20:38, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
- An example of using an unofficial name instead of an unused name is Pikmin 4's hazard generators. These have unused names, but using those names would make things difficult on the wiki; for example, "gaseous spring" doesn't describe the poison pipes in Pikmin 2, "electrode" is the same as a Pikmin 3 object that functions very differently, and the terms "geyser" and "air geyser" are used to describe the hazardous water geyser and the helpful geyser that propels the leader upwards respectively, which would be difficult to document considering the helpful geysers in previous games use water. Since we don't have to use these names, it's easier to use unofficial names. — Soprano(talk) 21:41, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
- If I may add, "stubborn" isn't necessarily vague or complicated. Sure, it's something of a personification, but the rocks could be described that way. I agree with Twins1105 in the sense that giving it the "wall" name at all wouldn't adequately describe it because it has very little to do with the official users of that title. As I'm sure you all know they're destroyed or subverted by the direct actions of Pikmin while these require them to push a ball that doesn't always even collide with them (in the Formidable Oak it breaks a Crystal Wall instead), so I think referring to them as "wall" might not be appropriate. But then there's the fact that the internal name could make it harder for casual players to find the article. Maybe the page could say that it is colloquially known as something that it may be more commonly described as? (Note: I wrote this before seeing Soprano's addition to the page.) Deeb1324354657 (talk) 21:43, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
- You do bring up a great point Soprano, I find both sides of this equally compelling. Deeb1324354657 (talk) 21:44, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
- Personally, putting aside that I my other reason for supporting the usage of the "Stubborn Rocks" name (that being that it's an official name), I will say that when I first saw that name in the TCRF page, I somewhat quickly realized what it referred to. "Stubborn rocks, must be rocks blocking some way, but where? Oh right, those rocks in the Distant Tundra." Meanwhile, when I saw the name "Brick Wall", I started trying to think of a wall/gate type obstacle that was made of bricks, and couldn't think of any. So the idea that "Brick Wall" is a more helpful name is very subjective. 2 B (talk) 05:53, July 12, 2024 (EDT)
- I'd say I find your statement the most agreeable; that's what I meant by saying the rocks could be described that way. Also, Soprano, just because we use unofficial names for some elements of the games that are more vague shouldn't mean that we should use them for every vague one, no? Wouldn't it be best to stick to the official names for as long as it's reasonable, which, I think it can be argued that this is? Just look at the main page - we're a comprehensive encyclopedia, and encyclopedias don't use a colloquial name because the public might not understand the real one. I also think that, if the name were to be provided in-game, the casual audience would probably still accept it and not think twice about it for the most part; like, the name of bamboo gates isn't provided, at least in 3DX (to my knowledge), but it's still fairly agreeable that they should be called bamboo gates (or maybe I sound like an idiot and they're called something else, but that's just my mistake and has little to do with the actual argument), so I think these should remain recognised as stubborn rocks. I suppose we can bolster the publication of this name (if it gets accepted) by making sure to put them in See Also sections of a lot of pages; making knowledge of their name more widespread would definitely help them be more accepted and understood by their official name. Deeb1324354657 (talk) 12:06, July 12, 2024 (EDT)
- Personally, putting aside that I my other reason for supporting the usage of the "Stubborn Rocks" name (that being that it's an official name), I will say that when I first saw that name in the TCRF page, I somewhat quickly realized what it referred to. "Stubborn rocks, must be rocks blocking some way, but where? Oh right, those rocks in the Distant Tundra." Meanwhile, when I saw the name "Brick Wall", I started trying to think of a wall/gate type obstacle that was made of bricks, and couldn't think of any. So the idea that "Brick Wall" is a more helpful name is very subjective. 2 B (talk) 05:53, July 12, 2024 (EDT)
- You do bring up a great point Soprano, I find both sides of this equally compelling. Deeb1324354657 (talk) 21:44, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
- If I may add, "stubborn" isn't necessarily vague or complicated. Sure, it's something of a personification, but the rocks could be described that way. I agree with Twins1105 in the sense that giving it the "wall" name at all wouldn't adequately describe it because it has very little to do with the official users of that title. As I'm sure you all know they're destroyed or subverted by the direct actions of Pikmin while these require them to push a ball that doesn't always even collide with them (in the Formidable Oak it breaks a Crystal Wall instead), so I think referring to them as "wall" might not be appropriate. But then there's the fact that the internal name could make it harder for casual players to find the article. Maybe the page could say that it is colloquially known as something that it may be more commonly described as? (Note: I wrote this before seeing Soprano's addition to the page.) Deeb1324354657 (talk) 21:43, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
- An example of using an unofficial name instead of an unused name is Pikmin 4's hazard generators. These have unused names, but using those names would make things difficult on the wiki; for example, "gaseous spring" doesn't describe the poison pipes in Pikmin 2, "electrode" is the same as a Pikmin 3 object that functions very differently, and the terms "geyser" and "air geyser" are used to describe the hazardous water geyser and the helpful geyser that propels the leader upwards respectively, which would be difficult to document considering the helpful geysers in previous games use water. Since we don't have to use these names, it's easier to use unofficial names. — Soprano(talk) 21:41, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
- the unused enemy is, well, unused. The difference here is that the stubborn rocks are an obstacle which is easily seen in normal gameplay. It's unfair to expect a reader to know this common obstacle's unused name, as its impossible to see legitimately. Which is why we prefer unofficial, simple descriptive names in these cases. PopitTart (talk) 20:38, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
- As of today, Earth-and-space found that the Japanese Pikmin 3 guidebook uses a different name to refer to this obstacle, (石垣?, lit.: "Stone wall"). I think that due to it appearing in a released guidebook rather than only in unused text alongside its name being easier to understand, the page and related content should be moved to stone wall, and the stubborn rocks name should be moved to another section. (maybe into trivia?) Twins1105 (talk) 23:28, September 10, 2025 (EDT)
- "Stone wall" is not an ideal name for this obstacle, since the name is used in Pikmin to refer to reinforced walls. However, I think it's a better name than "Stubborn rocks", and also a better name than "Brick wall". If the article was called "Stone wall", there would need to be a disambiguation template at the top of the page to link to the Reinforced wall article. — Soprano(talk) 05:39, September 12, 2025 (EDT)
- Ultimately, in order to minimise reader confusion and maximise page views and general helpfulness to the community, I think we should, in more vague situations like these, choose article names that make things easier on the reader. I'd argue encyclopaedias such as this are, at least in part, to teach and be friendly to those who don't know as much about their topic, so I think stone wall is a good naming choice because, well, it's a wall of stones here. Even if this conflicts with reinforced wall, which is also a wall constructed of stone, disambigs solve that problem; it's better than readers puzzling to find this page because they wouldn't instinctively describe random inanimate rocks as "stubborn" (and I doubt many would). Also, I don't know what policy is on this, but what if these were referred to as "Stone wall (Pikmin 3)"? Having a page called just "Stone wall" and then another page saying "Reinforced walls, also known as stone walls [in Pikmin]" seems a little clunky.
There isn't a clear great way to go about solving this, if there was we wouldn't still be debating it, but I do feel that minimising confusion by referring to things by what is effectively most official and by what they actually appear as is the best way to go, as that method is friendly and has downsides that can be accounted for. Deeb1324354657 (talk) 11:56, October 19, 2025 (EDT)
- Ultimately, in order to minimise reader confusion and maximise page views and general helpfulness to the community, I think we should, in more vague situations like these, choose article names that make things easier on the reader. I'd argue encyclopaedias such as this are, at least in part, to teach and be friendly to those who don't know as much about their topic, so I think stone wall is a good naming choice because, well, it's a wall of stones here. Even if this conflicts with reinforced wall, which is also a wall constructed of stone, disambigs solve that problem; it's better than readers puzzling to find this page because they wouldn't instinctively describe random inanimate rocks as "stubborn" (and I doubt many would). Also, I don't know what policy is on this, but what if these were referred to as "Stone wall (Pikmin 3)"? Having a page called just "Stone wall" and then another page saying "Reinforced walls, also known as stone walls [in Pikmin]" seems a little clunky.
- "Stone wall" is not an ideal name for this obstacle, since the name is used in Pikmin to refer to reinforced walls. However, I think it's a better name than "Stubborn rocks", and also a better name than "Brick wall". If the article was called "Stone wall", there would need to be a disambiguation template at the top of the page to link to the Reinforced wall article. — Soprano(talk) 05:39, September 12, 2025 (EDT)
Validity of {{title}}[edit]
The name of this article is, of course, unused, but that does not make it unofficial, so does this template really belong here? As I said a year and four days ago up above, I do believe it could be helpful to notify readers that the title is not actually used in-game, if that's a possibility, but, at least by my definition of the word official (which I believe is fairly common), the statement that this object has no official name is a blatant lie. Deeb1324354657 (talk) 00:04, July 16, 2025 (EDT)
- Template:Title doesn't apply in this case but there is a proposed rework of the template on PopitTart's sandbox that would apply in this case. Twins1105 (talk) 07:15, July 16, 2025 (EDT)